A cool 787 web site

262crew · **Joined:** Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:24 pm **Posts:** 877

I found this at work today while on break.

http://www.newairplane.com/

The Inspector · **Posted:** Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:59 am

..and I'm pretty proud to be even a very tiny, almost insignificant part of breaking into that next level of aviation development beyond rags and sticks, and tin and fibreglass, onto the new plateau of truly flying into the future on the future.

Those who are removed from the process donot and cannot understand exactly whats going on with 'that darned, late airplane, is it ever going to fly?', all we are doing here is being Aamandson heading for the Pole, Scott heading for the other Pole, Ericsson looking for Vineland,and Wilbur leaving a note for Orville 'HEY, come out to the shop, I've got one heck of an idea' We, all of us in this project in any part large or small, are out onto the parts of the map marked 'unexplored'

Not forgetting the rags and sticks nor tin and fibreglass (where I cut my teeth) that came before us, but building upon that proud heritage of ideas, courage, inspiration, dumb luck, and millions of gallons of sweat and unnumbered cut fingers involved in getting to this point.

All the aggrivations, cursing, and head banging will subside when later this month, aviation history is made with the first flight of Z1, and very soon after the digging in to make whats 'pretty neat' into a world leader, this will be my 6th participation in working to get a new design off the jigs and into the air whether driving fasteners, inspecting, or instructing others. I can't wait for later this month!!

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:53 am

The sad part is that Boeing has run into many of the Regulatory problems that Burt Rutan and Beechcraft ran into 30+ years ago with the Starship. One would think that this many years of successful large composite structure operations would mean that the FAA would be much more acceptable to these kinds of structures on an airliner scale, but that would be ignorant because it is, after all, a bureaucracy and not a rational regulatory agency.

The Inspector · **Posted:** Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:10 am

It is unfortunate, but our buddies @ the Freely Associating A$$holes Club are still not REELLLLYYY sold on that fabric and stick stuff and still donot really cotton to tinwork. But then again, any oganization that feels the need to bury itself under 350 layers of lawyers and P.R. clowns, would quite probably mess themselves if they walked into the mens room and two stalls were not occupied.

Enemy Ace · **Posted:** Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:01 pm

Plesae just don't get too cutting edge on something I will have to fly across the Atlantic in. I prefer reliable over innovative when it's me in the back.

The Inspector · **Posted:** Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:11 pm

NO, this is Boeing, not Airbus, the aircraft is as safe as a block of apartments, you'll like a 6500 ft cabin and 26-28% humidity and much quieter engines tahnks to the new 'cookie cutter' cowls-

airnutz · **Posted:** Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:50 pm

The Inspector wrote:

...and much quieter engines tahnks to the new 'cookie cutter' cowls-

Thanks for the info Inspector. Can you explain how the "cookie cutter" cowls do that?

The Inspector · **Posted:** Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:27 pm

If you look, on the website, you'll see the aft edges of the bypass cowls are pretty deep, rounded scallops or sort of spikes. The majority of noise you hear coming off a high bypass engine (CF-6, 4084, TRENT, CF-90) is the compressed air in the bypass cowl sleeve shearing as it escapes the sharp edged confines of the cowling, kinda like having the Green Giant blow across the open end of a bottle, or running shop air in a small diameter pipe but in extreme conditions and a huge expansion of the air. Around 89+% of the thrust from newer generation engines is cold thrust coming in the front end, bypassing around the core of the engine. The core takes in only enough air to sustain the big campfire in the turbine section, you'd be astounded at just how small and short the 14th stage blades are in a CFM-56 on a 737, like 1/2 in. by 5/8th in. so you get the sharp, hard shreeking as the air leaves the fan cowl. Thats why the cowls on a triple 7 are 13&1/2 feet in inside diameter.
The 787 WILL NOT take any air from the engines for anything except cowl inlet anti ice control. No more bleed air for A/C, starts, any of that stuff! Bleed air steals fuel mileage and range to cool you off, the bleed air taken from the 14th stage on a CF-6 is over 1300 degrees f and gets compressed, expanded, cooled and distributed before it blows on your face out of the gasper vent @ 72f. The pressurization and A/C is electrically driven @ the packs by big motors (and 7 turbocompressors on each side). The engines have an electric starter, not bleed air ('it still ain't starting, get the jumpers out of the tug'). The brakes and nose wheel steering are electric, the only cables will be the lav dump valve releases.
THe flight deck is planned to have around 52 total switches and less than 100 KLIXON type, push/pull circuit breakers for big things, but over 1100 'virtual' Circuit Breakers to control most of the systems (kinda hard to explain in a few words, but they will be 'touch' type) right in the CRT's in front of the crew, kinda like Worf controlling the Enterprise on TNG by touch alone, but the proper screen must first be selected on the CRTs before you can start turning stuff on and off.

Good to go, last long time-

The Inspector · **Posted:** Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:21 pm

.....Oh, Yeah- and a 5000 PSI hydraulic system to raise and lower the gear

airnutz · **Posted:** Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:56 pm

Yep checked out the website, but I didn't find much detail stuff..coupla videos about the engine runs and immediately
noticed the 'scalloped' cowls..but no tekkie piccies and info. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I wish ya'll the best
for first flight later this month, Herr Inspector! :wink:

Airplanejunkie · **Posted:** Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:48 am

The Inspector wrote:

If you look, on the website, you'll see the aft edges of the bypass cowls are pretty deep, rounded scallops or sort of spikes. The majority of noise you hear coming off a high bypass engine (CF-6, 4084, TRENT, CF-90) is the compressed air in the bypass cowl sleeve shearing as it escapes the sharp edged confines of the cowling, kinda like having the Green Giant blow across the open end of a bottle, or running shop air in a small diameter pipe but in extreme conditions and a huge expansion of the air. Around 89+% of the thrust from newer generation engines is cold thrust coming in the front end, bypassing around the core of the engine. The core takes in only enough air to sustain the big campfire in the turbine section, you'd be astounded at just how small and short the 14th stage blades are in a CFM-56 on a 737, like 1/2 in. by 5/8th in. so you get the sharp, hard shreeking as the air leaves the fan cowl. Thats why the cowls on a triple 7 are 13&1/2 feet in inside diameter.
The 787 WILL NOT take any air from the engines for anything except cowl inlet anti ice control. No more bleed air for A/C, starts, any of that stuff! Bleed air steals fuel mileage and range to cool you off, the bleed air taken from the 14th stage on a CF-6 is over 1300 degrees f and gets compressed, expanded, cooled and distributed before it blows on your face out of the gasper vent @ 72f. The pressurization and A/C is electrically driven @ the packs by big motors (and 7 turbocompressors on each side). The engines have an electric starter, not bleed air ('it still ain't starting, get the jumpers out of the tug'). The brakes and nose wheel steering are electric, the only cables will be the lav dump valve releases.
THe flight deck is planned to have around 52 total switches and less than 100 KLIXON type, push/pull circuit breakers for big things, but over 1100 'virtual' Circuit Breakers to control most of the systems (kinda hard to explain in a few words, but they will be 'touch' type) right in the CRT's in front of the crew, kinda like Worf controlling the Enterprise on TNG by touch alone, but the proper screen must first be selected on the CRTs before you can start turning stuff on and off.

Good to go, last long time-

I'm intrigued by the "no bleed air thing." How are the wings anti iced?

Is the 5,000 psi system (that's a lot!!!) engine driven? How 'bout flaps and flight controls?

If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going....

(not that I expect my employer to buy any new aircraft....might interefere with executive compensation.)

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:27 am

It will use electric de-ice for the wings. In truth, it's probably more efficient and effective than thermal in a lot of cases, especially since it can be better controlled and thus operate while on the ground, unlike thermal anti-icing.

As for everything else, I believe the flaps and flight controls will be electric (similar to the F-16) or PCU (Pneumatic Control Unit) similar to the Avro Vulcan where each control surface has it's own miniature closed loop hydraulic system that is powered by the plane's electrical system.

The Inspector · **Posted:** Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:04 pm

Since hydraulics are only used for gear extension/retraction, there will be a neglible amount power taken by the engine driven pumps that will only work during the cycle, move the lever to "UP" and the pump kicks in until the uplocks are made, the pump takes a nap until many thousands of miles and hours later, the lever is moved to "DOWN" and the pump runs until the down and latched switches are made, and the pump goes back to sleep.
Flight controls are PCU/PCA type as CAPFLYER so eloquently describes, just as they are on the 757/767/777, but this time with no cable back ups at all (the 57/67 have rudder, limited aileron bussing, and pitch trim follow-ups, the 777 has, I believe, rudder only).
The fuselage will be tough enough to resist the usual 'ramp rash' from food service, baggage carts, and turd trucks-the basic airframe is designed to go 6 years until it's first "C" check and 12 years to it's first "D" check, about double the normal limits used today for big tin, the airframe is GUARANTEED to last 40 years.
Leading edges of the wings, horizontals, and vertical are of metal to promote ice elimination and limit damage from bird strikes.
And everything being learned in getting the 87 developed and smoothed out is being applied to the 737 replacement, and if you think the current Renton football (really old inside joke, when I was building 737-100's in the late '60s we called the thing 'the football' because it looked like one) is a world beater now, just wait for that one to show up! :wink:

Airplanejunkie · **Posted:** Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:22 pm

The Inspector wrote:

Since hydraulics are only used for gear extension/retraction, there will be a neglible amount power taken by the engine driven pumps that will only work during the cycle, move the lever to "UP" and the pump kicks in until the uplocks are made, the pump takes a nap until many thousands of miles and hours later, the lever is moved to "DOWN" and the pump runs until the down and latched switches are made, and the pump goes back to sleep.
Flight controls are PCU/PCA type as CAPFLYER so eloquently describes, just as they are on the 757/767/777, but this time with no cable back ups at all (the 57/67 have rudder, limited aileron bussing, and pitch trim follow-ups, the 777 has, I believe, rudder only).
The fuselage will be tough enough to resist the usual 'ramp rash' from food service, baggage carts, and turd trucks-the basic airframe is designed to go 6 years until it's first "C" check and 12 years to it's first "D" check, about double the normal limits used today for big tin, the airframe is GUARANTEED to last 40 years.
Leading edges of the wings, horizontals, and vertical are of metal to promote ice elimination and limit damage from bird strikes.
And everything being learned in getting the 87 developed and smoothed out is being applied to the 737 replacement, and if you think the current Renton football (really old inside joke, when I was building 737-100's in the late '60s we called the thing 'the football' because it looked like one) is a world beater now, just wait for that one to show up! :wink:

Sounds cool and makes a lot of sense. I've sure liked my 10 year stint on the 57/67. Never flew the /37 (Guppy) or the 47 (rope start or -400) but have a boatload of 3 holer time also. Probably 15,000 hours total in Boeings.

I think the efficiencies in these new generation jets are pretty dang amazing.

262crew · **Joined:** Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:24 pm **Posts:** 877

There are more videos and pictures on that site. Check out the new 747-8. Of special interest is the new GEnx engines. Click on the video in the upper right. http://www.newairplane.com/747/ Also the 747-8 is benefiting from the advancements and technologies of the 777 and 787. With the GEnx engines they took the scalloped design of the TR's (high by pass) and applied it to the low by pass (high temp) area.

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