Airlline Pilot Question?

[Bill Greenwood]

The FAA has a new regulation proposed to up the total flight hours required for commuter type airline pilots to 1500 total hours.
What do Wixers think?
Before this, some copilots might only have 300 hours.
It seems to me that the min should be perhaps 1000 hours, certainly more than 300. However, regardless of the total hours, the specific skills and training may be more important. You might have 1000 hours and be very well trained and current.
Many new pilots and smaller airlines are resisting this change due to costs.
I hope I have the basic facts right.

[CAPFlyer]

Well, think of this though Bill - no pilot who starts with an airline is going straight out on the line. They're going to get at least 50 hours if not more of simulator training before ever stepping foot onboard the real thing then they have to fly with a check pilot or senior pilot for a certain amount of time before they can openly bid on routes. Same for Captains too. They have to fly a certain number of legs with a Check Captain before being "let loose" after doing another bunch of hours in the sim as part of the upgrade course. I think the key with experience is that they have a good basis (and 350 hours PIC *can* be enough for that) and then good training for the plane and conditions they're going to fly in. I think more accidents are caused by not knowing the airplane than by general lack of experience. Having another 1000 hours of flying in Piper Navajo's isn't going to necessarily make a pilot any more capable of handling icing conditions in a DHC-8 if all that extra flying was in Puerto Rico. The airlines reduced the hours required because they couldn't get pilots because the number of military pilots going to the airlines went down both because of less doing only 1 hitch, but also because of the demand for those pilots increasing. But I don't think they reduced the quality of the pilots they were hiring or training because their own internal training got better to compensate for it.

In the end - it's a knee-jerk reaction by Congress again causing this, not the FAA.

[Randy Haskin]

The airlines reduced the hours required because they couldn't get pilots because the number of military pilots going to the airlines went down both because of less doing only 1 hitch, but also because of the demand for those pilots increasing.

Say again?

Regionals reduced their mins in the mid '00s so they could hire 300-hour-wonders at bargain-basement wages.

The Majors have always had 1,000 or 1,500-ish mins to allow military fighter guys to play. Their "realistic mins" for non-fighter guys have always been much higher than that.

[Airplanejunkie]

My understanding is that the new reg does allow schools to develop programs where the total flight time requirement can be reduced somewhat by substituting academic requirements, although I don't know the specifics.

The reason for the current low requirements is, in my opinion, pretty simple. Some airlines were having a tough time attracting and keeping qualified pilots. Rather than raise the pay to make the job attractive it was cheaper to lower the hiring requirements. This along with "arrangements" between certain schools and certain airlines that amounted to essentially a "buy your job" scheme.

I think the flow of military pilots has little to do with it, except that there are far fewer military pilots now than there were in the 80's and 90's and I know that many of those getting out don't see the airlines as a very attractive option any more.

FWIW,

Steve

[CAPFlyer]

Say again?

Regionals reduced their mins in the mid '00s so they could hire 300-hour-wonders at bargain-basement wages.

The Majors have always had 1,000 or 1,500-ish mins to allow military fighter guys to play. Their "realistic mins" for non-fighter guys have always been much higher than that.

It was far earlier than the mid-00's that the reduction started. Several Part-121 regionals had minimums as low as 500 hours in 1998 when I really started looking into the airline industry. Even when I was at college in late 2000 and early 2001, the recruiters from Compass and Mesaba were coming around and they had started reducing their minimums well below the 1,000-hour mark. Neither Mesaba nor Compass have ever been "bargain basement" for pay scale, but they stated flat out to those of us assembled for their speeches that the reason was they couldn't get enough pilots to keep the pipeline full plus the increased number of pilots needed with the growth of the industry at the time meant they had to open up to more guys and accept a longer transition training program to get enough people. As it is, the regional accidents that have occurred were not with "low time" pilots, they were with pilots that had been around for plenty of time. The pay reduction started in the mid-2000's for sure, but even at that, some airlines (Great Lakes is a perfect example) was already paying somewhere around $18,000 (now down to $16,000) for the first year of their FO's even with 800-850 hr minimums. So you're right that the hours have gone down instead of the pay going up, but to be honest, I think the increased training requirements to get the pilots type rated (even right seat) with lower total hours more than offsets the reduction in total hours of experience.

[tow-3]

the biggest problem is when the low time FO's upgrade after 15 or 16 months with 1500 hrs and then you have a 1500hr captain flying with a 300HR FO.
I don't mind flying with the low time new hires, most are pretty good. but, I've got 5000hrs that makes a big difference.

bob burns

[The Inspector]

Keep an eye on your local PBS station listings for FRONTLINE 'Flying Cheap' covering the lead up to, and some followup to CONTINENTAL EXPRESS 3407 and the causes behind the accident.

[Randy Haskin]

Keep an eye on your local PBS station listings for FRONTLINE 'Flying Cheap' covering the lead up to, and some followup to CONTINENTAL EXPRESS 3407 and the causes behind the accident.

Isn't this the same program that all ready played much earlier this year?

[The Inspector]

Yes...................and your point would be? Did it cross your mind that perhaps some folks either missed it or didn't know about it? If you know anything about me then you know that aviation safety is NUMERO UNO in my book and I believe it's worth seeing or seeing it again. Like they say 'Safety is no accident'
Something I liked to do with new students is have them hold a handful of washers, 'your hand is the airplane and these are the innocents who put their faith in you doing your job correctly, now you did a bad or poor job - spread your fingers' Try it next time you're diving into a bowl of nuts at the club.

[Randy Haskin]

Yes...................and your point would be? Did it cross your mind that perhaps some folks either missed it or didn't know about it?

Whoa, dude. I was just checking to see if it was the same one or a new one...I wasn't implying anything beyond that.

Do you often go straight offensive when someone asks a question like that?

[muddyboots]

deleted cause I was being a butthead.

[The Inspector]

I'm really sorry Randy, I got out in front of myself and I wish to appologize I just really do get my hackles up over aviation safety issues.
It is a repeat of the program from earlier this year.