Warbird Information Exchange

As I suggested and should have done, this needs its own string.

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

I'm not accusing of 'wrongs', or even 'mistakes', but since the sordid topic of coin and OPM was raised, does not Stratus seek OPM (tax free applied for) to support a search based on your theory of navigation? Does that prospect not require the signing of a non-disclosure agreement along with payment? As such, isn't Stratus thereby in effect selling her idea?

The only difference I see in TIGHAR and Stratus on that is that TIGHAR is in the full public eye with her ideas - Stratus does her selling behind a closed door.

This is what I meant by glass walls in this house...

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

Not trying to pick on Stratus, Viper, but I don't understand Gary's constant pleadings against TIGHAR but steadfast silence about Stratus, who will, yes -

Sell you a T shirt or hat, etc. - but all I can get for that is a fuzzy feeling of supporting something that clearly IS planned behind closed doors, and which I have no hope of knowing about short of buying in at 'big dog' rates (how much I do not know). Even then, where does Stratus hold out even a shot for peer review?

I like Gary fine, and he has some legit gripes - but Stratus is not a Sterling example of openness and is just as dependent on OPM as TIGHAR. Whether they have non-profit status yet I don't know, but they were attempting to get it.

Fair's fair and if Gary's going to gripe ad nauseam about TIGHAR then the least he can do as far as I am concerned is speak a bit about his affiliation with an outfit that seems to have many of the same features - selling an idea, namely. Maybe they should not be entitled to non-profit status for similar reasons of that concern being raised about TIGHAR.

I'm not accusing Stratus of any wrong, merely pointing out a lack of transparency and questioning whether 'non-profit' is a valid means of pursuit. It would be good if Stratus would address some of this.

One thing I've learned from experience with TIGHAR is to be more careful as a consumer - and that caution should not be limited to TIGHAR.

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

You must be a follower, Viper.

I'd like for Gary to engage on it, actually. I think that's only fair. Perhaps we need a new string, too.

You may have great faith in Cobb and LaPook, but nothing I've seen out of them suggests any more than a warmed-over asking the public to buy into an idea than much of what Gary gripes about at TIGHAR: they have a hypothesis; they support that with their own ideas; there is limited, if any, true peer review visible.

Gary's made himself something of a critical consumer advocate where TIGHAR is concerned, so he ought not need you to defend him where his own interests are concerned. In fact, Stratus ought to welcome the chance to answer.

Of course if Stratus has become a private entity that does not seek public OPM, then it's none of our business.

Anybody with any sense at all should hold each of these guys accountable after what's been learned in this industry.

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

I think the Titanic was found, Gary.

But, at least you are 'watching' - LOL!!!

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

Nice parsing, Counselor - you picked one point out of the whole and ignored the main thrust -

Stratus.

Which is clearly versed in web stuff, but devoid of a meaningful forum.

And you've not touched the questions about Stratus that I've raised. Until you do, Stratus kind of looks like TIGHAR in an overcoat.

Burden's on you if you want credibility.

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

Thanks Viper and I'm not concerned with your affiliation or not, was just commenting on your persistence in speaking up for Stratus. That implies a favorable connection - which is of course fine and would be your judgment, no quarrel there.

I am far from satisfied with Gary's 'answer' as it is NO answer at all to my points. I would be happy for Gary to submit a definitive thesis on his view of how he came to have such confidence in where the flight ended - SANS DETAILS of WHERE he believes the search should center, of course: I respect the proprietary nature of that detail. If Gary would do so, I can provide a suitable review and response soon enough. The point is not limited to navigational ability, of which I realize Gary has plenty - but as to other aspects that attend such as his logic as to 'just what Noonan would have done' given so many variables that are really not knowable.

So much for the technical end. The business end remains at loose ends as far as I am concerned, except for the moment to conclude that I wouldn't send a dime to Stratus because they look like a baseball cap emporium selling yet another open-ended promise. For all I can tell it is nothing more than a carnival ride.

But, if the 'big dogs' get inside, pay up and like it, more power to them. I just hope Stratus can stand the bleating that will follow about "OPM" once, if Stratus truly does become "not for profit", the little guys out here start seeing Cobb as a taker and a mission or two fails and a big donor gets disgruntled, etc. Better they should clarify now and perhaps generate a bit more credibility - if they can.

I do have Gary to thank in large degree for opening my eyes as to being more of a devil's advocate where all these 'enterprises' are concerned. I'm just not so sure that he's noticed how much glass is in the house he moved into, since of course he believes in his own position most fully.

If I had to bet on any one of those you mention, two stand out -

Long would get my vote as the most professional and genteel. If he ever asked the public for a dime I'm not aware of it - I think his efforts were privately funded, and he very thoroughly put his full rationale into clear print and has been a reserved, worthy gentleman through-out.

Billings is hands-down the little guy who put his own wad into his own idea and took the lumps as they came; he's irascible in defending himself against criticism - at times to the point of splitting my sides, and at others... well, even cartoons have a limit... but hey, I didn't drop $80K of my own money on what he did and have to see criticism dropped on my head from a bully pulpit, either.

NEITHER gets a vote from me as "most likely to succeed" however -

I now believe it will be an absolute MIRACLE if Earhart is ever found by ANY of these many efforts. It is far more likely, I believe, given the time that has passed and the enormity and complexity of the environment that she disappeared in, that she's gone from human eyes forever, barring some accidental find one day. My view on this stands whether it was Gardner, the open sea, or near any number of other sea mounts or islands.

That, I now believe, is the core consumer message: caveat emptor - she's well and truly lost in a very difficult area without a single witness or piece of tangible, provable evidence left behind.

I do also admire the spirit in Gary's pursuit - but I am concerned at the high-gloss appeal I see coming from Stratus - whom he is affililiated with (his picture there is in the Titanic's dry dock, home of Stratus), which is yet another intended "not for profit" entity. Not for profit too often shields a device for high salaries and / or big prospects for it's principles if a find is made, etc., while little guys fund. So further to Gary's own sterling principles of holding an entity - like TIGHAR, accountable, I believe Stratus has some things it ought to share if they want public confidence.

I'll close by qualifying that comment about 'little guys' money -

We little folk usually fund the minority amount in these things, by far. It's easy enough for me to criticize, for example, TIGHAR's board when I read that deposition - and perhaps rightly so. But I've also thought a time or two about how those very guys also put the lion's share of funding into that effort, more often than not.

Yep, they got the tax advantages too - argue ad nauseam, pro and con, but as to us little folk - as long as Billings' principle of not letting kiddies bust their piggie banks and not letting helpless old folks get bled, it is more savvy buyer beware. But the buyer ought to be informed - well agreed.

So, Gary has spoken. Will he finish the discussion?

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

Thanks Gary.

You now cite your posts at TIGHAR as the main repository for your work - a place you also sorely criticize. If you point there as a magnum opus, give credit where due: someone did bother, despite their many flaws, to give us a place to do that. All these walls are of glass.

I am also aware of your personal site and have visited it. I realize in general the idea of a crash 'north of Howland under a cloudy sky', which parallels Itasca's initial thoughts, and those of others. I also fully respect that you must keep your intended search area confidential. That said, I remain mystified as to how you can box in an area of open sea with enough confidence to assure a reasonable shot at success for a sea search. "Crap shoot" at about $2M - $5M a toss is my best rational guess. Can you really advertise better odds than Gillespie's craps table with full confidence? Your coconuts are bigger than the ones on Niku if you can, hats off.

Cobb's generosity toward your effort does not surprise me - at the personal level I found him pleasant and generous.

I do not begrudge or mean to demean the attire; I admire the wares offered by Stratus. But convince me that there is more to it.

And, there is no free lunch -

Cobb sees something in this or he wouldn't have bothered - and it's not likely all altruistic as to Earhart ties to Ireland, etc. For you it may be no more than a chance to see your own theory taken to the test - I wouldn't be surprised, you are a modest guy, actually - but with an obvious zeal for what you believe in. Cobb too has a zeal for the theatrical around historic events and an appreciation for the interlacing culture. But everybody's got to eat - and heaven knows Gillespie's been beaten up for eating off the public platter a time or two, so, no free lunch... Are you going to turn down a quarter mil if it comes your way for 'rights' or 'project direction' or something? Is Cobb?

That is all fine if it comes to be - but where 'not for profit' is concerned, and given the environment of acrimony around TIGHAR's behavior - which in fairness you and I and others have helped generate, more answers are needed, IMO. Balance demands it.

That's to Cobb's and your benefit, actually. I have no reason to believe you guys are less than honest - but I lack full information for myself as the consumer, were I to stand by and watch you guys get tax-exempt status. I'm not Irish, so maybe I shouldn't worry - but many here are not American either, and many concern themselves deeply with my plight as an American tax payer, which I appreciate.

So what is the underlying business plan, i.e. qui bono?

Unless Cobb's far richer than I think he is, there must be some tangible benefit in sight. Full of risk, I realize - but it's not really his or your money that is going to float that mission, is it?

Fair enough - but if others are to fund the effort, they ought to know; and if us little guys needn't knock, then what business do you guys have getting tax-exempt status? ALL taxpayers in effect support in that case, whether they donate directly or not, so I think these are fair questions.

So one thing that I do not understand is how Stratus can keep a high price on that level of access and yet expect broad support via a tax benefit such as is apparently intended - which means unwitting support from many little people. That can amount to a fleecing if things are not well understood and found fair - the same thing you have often accused TIGHAR of in one way or another.

Gillespie is roundly criticized for many things - including being an unabashed promoter who will spin a yarn so as to take from any gullible enough to give. Whatever he does, however, is largely in the public eye. Granted TIGHAR's inner workings were smoky until Mellon blew that away with his compliant and public filing, but it wasn't out of reach. I'd hate to see the day that Stratus came to face anything like that - wouldn't want it for you or Cobb. Think of that: you've demanded a lot of TIGHAR, should you ask less of Stratus for us?

Thanks for your kind answers so far.

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

Not sure how, Gary, but OK -

"How has LaPook refined his ideas to the point that OPM ought to chase them, who will be compensated and how, if successful, and what about interim operational costs, including any salaries, who pays for a failure, are they really still seeking nonprofit status or not, why is that warranted if so, etc.?"

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???

Of course not, Viper - and I'm not asking for that.

_________________
Jeff Neville

Makin' smoke... where are you lady???