Warbird Information Exchange

Hi everyone,

As I have been piling through old photos from the last 80+ years here at Cutter Aviation (http://www.cutteraviation.com), I came across this shot and was hoping some of the vintage enthusiasts here might be able to help me as I try to piece together some of our history as the oldest continually family-owned FBO in the nation.



The larger image for download and zoom can be found at: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jCGmlpag4XbE6ahZucAzmw?authkey=Gv1sRgCKz2wM2hksXBFA&feat=directlink

Based on what was written on the photo and what I can find out via Wikipedia and the like, this is a photo of William P. Cutter (our founder) from 1932 with a group of hunters he flew in this plane to Stinking Lake, NM (what a name!) From what I can tell, it's a Bird (Brunner-Winkle) Model C with what looks like a Wright J-5 engine in the front... an according to what I can find on the web, there was only one built with the J-5 on the front -- all the others were Kinners and were the CK version (though a few had OX-5s as well).

Correction, as you will see with the replies below - this plane has been re-ID'd as a Pitcairn PA-5 Sport Mailwing

I am wondering if anyone knows anything about this plane... and if it really was a one-of-a-kind. I'd also be curious to know if it was still around in some form or another and if not, what it's history was after leaving the care of Mr. Cutter.

Thanks in advance for any help! Please feel free to pass this along to ANY vintage forum or expert on the web and if anyone sees this and wishes to reply in private, please email me at keough.ryan@gmail.com

Thanks!
Ryan

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Ryan Keough
Stow, MA

Not a Bird, for sure. There is at least one J5 Bird out there...
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=30061

I'm not so good at IDs without a little more time to look carefully , but it might be a PA5 "Sport" Mailwing...

FWIW: The earlier Birds were OX5 powered. The B Birds were mostly made with Kinners ie BK Birds. Likewise, most of the "C" Birds were K(inners). There were some other engines used on a few, and the factory would sell you one without any engine at all, although I don't know if any were delivered that way.

Best,

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Steve
www.eaglesmereairmuseum.org
www.net2nite.com

That actually helps a lot Steve! The photo was labeled "W.P. Cutter and Bird at Stinking Lake with hunters" so I naturally went in the direction of the Bird, but you are spot on about the PA-5... the tail and outer wing struts are dead giveaways... thanks! This gives me a whole new direction to pursue... I wish the tail markings were easier to read though!

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Ryan Keough
Stow, MA

Ryan,

Definitely looks to be a Pitcairn of some sort. Check with Mike or Mark Posey, they may be able to ID it for you

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http://www.goldenageair.org

If a good landing is one you can walk away from... Then a Great landing is one in which you can IMMEDIATELY reuse the airplane!

Ryan,

It would be cool to see more of the historical shots from the Cutter Aviation collection. Any Howard 500s, OnMark Invaders, Beech 18s and DC-3s?

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Blue Skies,
Dan
http://www.flytoanothertime.com

Hey Steve,

I don't mean to get off topic and I would have to sit down and look it up again to be sure, but I am almost positive that there is only one "C" Bird that was ever built. What made it a "C" model as opposed to a "BK" etc was the J6-5 Wright engine. When I saw the old title of this thread I got real excited, I would love to see some early picture of the "C" Bird.....Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.........

Does it count as staying on topic if we emphasize the Wright engine aspect?

I did a quick look up and it appears you are correct...sort of....

A "C" with no suffix is a Wright powered Bird with a higher gross weight (and presumably a fourth seat) than the "B" birds. The other "C" series Birds, ie the Kinner powered CK and the Warner powered CW share approximately the same gross weight and 4 place configuration as the plain old "C." Of these higher gross weight birds, most were Kinner Birds (CK.)

I think you're right, only one "C" was built.

Learn something new every day!

Steve

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Steve
www.eaglesmereairmuseum.org
www.net2nite.com

The airplane is absolutely a Pitcairn. So when did you say this airport was built? Koerner Airport in Kankakee, Illinois has been owned and operated by the Koerner family since about 1928.

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President National Waco Club
Curator for the Waco Historical Society Air Museum
Writer for VINTAGE AIRPLANE, SKYWAYS, BARNSTORMERS.COM EFLYER

Cutter Flying Service was started in early 1928 from Albuquerque, NM as a charter operation, flight training facility, and service facility for aviation's early years. William P. Cutter, the founder, operated it continually through WWII as a Naval training contract kept the company operating during the drought of General Aviation during the war. In 1946, Cutter became a Beechcraft dealer and grew to become the primary Beechcraft dealer serving the Southwestern US (a title retained until January 2009 when Hawker Beechcraft went to factory direct sales). William P. Cutter passed on the reigns of the company to his sons William R. "Bill" Cutter and Sid Cutter. Bill Cutter led the company through the 90's as Sid pursued his passion for ballooning (he was one of the original founders of the Albuquerque Balloon Fiesta). Today the company is led by Will W. Cutter, the son of Bill Cutter and Bill still retains the title of chairman. The entire Cutter family have such a rich history in aviation... and I am honored to be part of the company and able to help preserve some of the history that the company has been part of.

As far as I know, via data we received from several sources, we are definitely the oldest continually family owned FBO chain and are very likely to be the oldest family operated FBO in the nation, but that might be hard to conclusively prove as business records for some aviation enterprises in and around the late 1920's is hit-and-miss. I will certainly look into the Koerner operation though!

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Ryan Keough
Stow, MA

Just call Koerner Aviation in Kankakee, Illinois. Ask to talk to Steve or Roger. Tell them Andy Heins sent you. By the way......any WACO photos in the collection????????????

_________________
President National Waco Club
Curator for the Waco Historical Society Air Museum
Writer for VINTAGE AIRPLANE, SKYWAYS, BARNSTORMERS.COM EFLYER

Just saw this thread, hence the slow response.

Close as I can figure based on the fuzzy N number, that is Pitcairn PA-5 Mailwing s/n 7, NC3468
It was originally purchased by Colonial Air Transport and as far as I know, is no longer around.