Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:05 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Click here to goto Amazon.com


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:01 pm 
Offline
Squadron Leader

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:56 pm
Posts: 182
Location: Waco, TX
Just curious - Have seen Mustangs for sale that list "P-63 wheels/brakes conversion", what does this involve and why is it done?

I know that a lot of Sea Furies have F-102 wheels and brakes replacing the British setup, but haven't heard anything on Mustangs.

Thanks! :drink3:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:38 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:11 pm
Posts: 3139
Location: MQS- Coatesville, PA
hahnej wrote:
Just curious - Have seen Mustangs for sale that list "P-63 wheels/brakes conversion", what does this involve and why is it done?

I know that a lot of Sea Furies have F-102 wheels and brakes replacing the British setup, but haven't heard anything on Mustangs.

Thanks! :drink3:

Both P-51 and P-63 used the same axel, tire (27SC) so were the same except for the size and number of stacked rotating and stationary discs that make up the braking part.
P-51 were 7" in dia and IIRC have 9 rotating and 10 stationary discs.
P-63 are 9" and have 7 rotating and 8 stationary discs.
Only other change needed to put P-63 on a P-51 is that there is a plunger in each wheel well that the P-51 brake housing will strike when retracted. This is part of the mechanism that controls a valve to close the inner gear doors during the gear sequence.
Since the P-63 brake housing is larger in dia and different in shape, the striker needs some modification to function properly.
Rich

_________________
Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:18 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:44 am
Posts: 3009
Location: Heartland, America
What's the advantage of that modification?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:48 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:11 pm
Posts: 3139
Location: MQS- Coatesville, PA
Randy Haskin wrote:
What's the advantage of that modification?

Braking comes down to a few things, pressure, square footage of contact area and torque or the distance from the center the pressure is applied.ie the further out the more effective that force can be applied.
Difference is the square footage, 9 rotating discs in the P-51 vs 7 in the P-63.
Picture of P-63 is found half way down this page-
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... c&start=45
P-63 was designed for a nosewheel a/c. We are a little leery of them but I have never heard of the brakes tipping P-51 on its nose.
Rich

_________________
Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:19 pm 
Offline
Group Captain

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:37 am
Posts: 846
Location: Moncks Corner, SC, USA
It appears that the extra square footage available on the P-63 discs is somewhat negated by the extra discs on the P-51, so the main difference is the greater torque being applied by the P-63 units?

Walt


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:54 am 
Offline
Squadron Leader

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:56 pm
Posts: 182
Location: Waco, TX
Thanks for the info, curiousity satisfied! :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:26 pm 
Offline
Corporal

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:16 am
Posts: 16
While the NAA built Mustangs (and the CA-17s built up from NAA components) delivered to the RAAF had the smaller brakes, the wholly Australian Mustangs built by CAC had the larger brakes as the standard factory fit. From the correspondence about the contract at the time there was some concern about short field performance vs overbraking and tipping on their noses.

The latter does not seem to be a difficulty in practise; I have yet to see a photo of RAAF Mustang on its nose.

HTH
David Muir

Author 'Southern Cross Mustangs'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:33 pm 
Offline
Group Captain

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:41 am
Posts: 523
A friend of mine who owned a 'D model in the early '70s, had P-63 brakes. He says the big advantage is that they don't get hot like stock Mustang brakes so therefore you get better braking action.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:55 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:28 pm
Posts: 1784
Location: Waukesha, WI
RareBear wrote:
It appears that the extra square footage available on the P-63 discs is somewhat negated by the extra discs on the P-51, so the main difference is the greater torque being applied by the P-63 units?

Walt


All seems to be "genometry". What is the actual comparison in total swept area of the '51 vs '63 brakes? If the plates are the same dimensions for surface area, then you are correct that more plates mean more braking surface unless you get greater pressure from the P-63 brakes with less area.

Other possiblities, different pad material that is more efficient?

Answer is? 8)

_________________
"There are old pilots and bold pilots but few old, bold pilots."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:11 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:11 pm
Posts: 3139
Location: MQS- Coatesville, PA
A few photos of the different wheels-
Inside of P-51 wheel where the rotating discs engage the slots in the wheel.
Image
Same view of the P-63 wheel-
Image
P-51 wheel inside and outside-
Image
Image
P-63 wheel inside and outside view-
Image
Image
One other big difference is the P-51 wheel is solid mag. To mount a tire it isn't any different than getting a tire mounted for your car or pickup. Only the bead on the tire is about 3/4" thick.
The P-63 wheel is a split rim. The wheel has a ring on the outboard side that is held in place by small ring retainer. All parts, including the retainer, are mag. This does make changing a tire pretty easy though.
Rich

_________________
Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: P-63 Brakes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:14 pm 
Offline
Flight Sergeant

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:34 am
Posts: 85
Location: Chino, CA
I talked to the guy that "pioneered" the changeover many mustangs went through going to the P-63 brakes. He had a huge inventory of P-63 wheels and brake parts and sold the concept to the operators in the 70's because he had the inventory to sell.

The P-63 setup using the P-51 master cylinders works ok --sometimes requires pumping up the brakes to get full pedal; I've flown both set-ups and don't think there is much functional difference in the stopping capability. The surface area calculates out pretty similarly. One nice thing about the P-63 setup is the wheel is a split rim assembly which allows you to break the bead and remove and replace the tires without a tire machine.

_________________
Tom N


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:30 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:11 pm
Posts: 3139
Location: MQS- Coatesville, PA
sdennison wrote:
RareBear wrote:
It appears that the extra square footage available on the P-63 discs is somewhat negated by the extra discs on the P-51, so the main difference is the greater torque being applied by the P-63 units?

Walt


All seems to be "genometry". What is the actual comparison in total swept area of the '51 vs '63 brakes? If the plates are the same dimensions for surface area, then you are correct that more plates mean more braking surface unless you get greater pressure from the P-63 brakes with less area.

Other possiblities, different pad material that is more efficient?

Answer is? 8)

There really isn't a pad. The stationary discs are hard chrome and ground flat. The rotating discs are hot metal sprayed on both sides with a bronze alloy material that is the "pad". This stack gets squeezed by an o-ring in the brake housing and there is threaded steel plate that sets the gap of the stack which is adjustable. All this is the same design, type and material between the -63 and the -51. Only real difference is the dia and number of discs.
Rich

_________________
Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:54 pm 
Offline
Co-MVP - 2006
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:39 am
Posts: 4456
Location: Midland, TX Yee-haw.
Thanks for posting those pictures, Rich. You just helped me identify a P-63 wheel I have here. ;-)

Gary


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:14 am 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:28 pm
Posts: 1784
Location: Waukesha, WI
There really isn't a pad. The stationary discs are hard chrome and ground flat. The rotating discs are hot metal sprayed on both sides with a bronze alloy material that is the "pad". This stack gets squeezed by an o-ring in the brake housing and there is threaded steel plate that sets the gap of the stack which is adjustable. All this is the same design, type and material between the -63 and the -51. Only real difference is the dia and number of discs.
Rich

So what is the advantage to going through this mod? Is there an availability issue with either version, parts wise? Are the friction plates rebuildable? 8)

_________________
"There are old pilots and bold pilots but few old, bold pilots."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:36 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:44 am
Posts: 3009
Location: Heartland, America
Thanks!!

Those photos describe things perfectly.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Dan Jones, Enthusiast 72, fiftycal, Google Adsense [Bot], LadyO2Pilot, Majestic-12 [Bot], tom d. friedman and 30 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group