Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:26 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Warbird Digest
Final Cut-The Post War B-17 Flying Fortress and Survivors - 5th Edition


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:55 am 
Offline
Lance Corporal

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:45 pm
Posts: 32
I find the fact that the Hispano Ha1112 Buchon fighters that go into a rebuild hangar and come out Messerschmitt Me 109 / Bf 109 fighters do not have provenance. Two thirds of the aircraft is still Spanish if you remove the Daimler Benz Engine. So if you undress a Spanish bullfighter and put Lederhosen / Bundhosen on that person, it does not make them a German Citizen. The change from the Rolls Royce Merlin (which has a lovely sound and the Allison also is not far behind) makes the Daimler Benz not as nice. If this has happened to enhance the sale value, then the prices asked could be a bridge too far. I have often found that a display does benefit and bring comment from certain people concerning the noise. Once when watching a Sopwith Pup move up to a flight line and due to the older engine being used, it was popping and banging and blipping, my wife turned and said it sounded like me first thing in the morning, bless her. Other times I can get bored watching the umpteen Spitfire and possibly in the future Messerschmitt . My best displays were Transport Planes. The Fokker F27 Friendship / Troopship comes under the, if it looks right it is right banner. I watched a Dutch Air Force pilot throw his F27 all over the sky and in another clip in New Zealand watch a pilot move the aircraft from a hardstand to the runway like a Ferrari (this aircraft is with HARS in NSW now). The De Havilland Caribou could go backwards at the same speed as going forward on a runway. If you want me to pick a Warbird then the Commonwealth Boomerang was lovely . So the Hispano Ha1112 Buchon will always be a Hispano Ha1112 Buchon, so please no name changes, it will confuse the born again or mid life crises aircraft enthusiasts of historical facts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:46 am 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:27 am
Posts: 3449
Location: Eastern Washington
Yes, it won't be a "real" 109, but it will be a German designed airframe with a German engine, not British. So it will be Spanish/German instead of Spainish/German/English. See, they cut out 1/3 of the countries!

A Caribou taxiing backwards..hopefully it had a turbine conversion! (Or was a Buffalo).

_________________
Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:17 am 
Offline
Lance Corporal

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:45 pm
Posts: 32
Hi John B

You are right of course that the original plans came from Germany, but due to a shortage of Daimler Benz engines after WW2 and also another local engine in Spain, the Spanish redesigned the aircraft to accept the Rolls Royce Merlin Engine and propeller. These Hispano Buchon fighters have Hispano factory manufactured serial numbers not German manufactured serial numbers. So the provenance remains Spanish and if you are paying up to something like between $2,000,000 and $2,500,000 dollars you want the original German goods.

The De Havilland Canada Caribou was bought by the Royal Australian Air Force for service in the Viet Nam war. They had Pratt & Whitney
engines and could change the direction of their propellers. It was always their party piece in Air shows by landing in a short distance and doing the change to the props and going back to where they touched down and taking off in that same small space. They could not get another aircraft to do the same sort of flying and kept them long after others had scrapped them and it was only the spare parts for the engine's that forced them with regret to buy an Italian plane that although did not do all the things that the Caribou could do, but they do some things better.
You will find in YouTube that it has a few films of an R.A.A.F. Caribou flying at a New Zealand Air Show. One even has it going backwards.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:37 am 
Offline
Group Captain

Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:56 am
Posts: 756
Many of the Buchons had German fuelages and components....

By the way the RAAF love their C-27J Spartans and they are a huge improvement over the CAribou.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:40 am 
Offline
Lance Corporal

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:45 pm
Posts: 32
Hi Invader26

Only 25 aircraft arrived from Germany and were to be called Me 109Js, by 1943/44 the tide of the war was going against Germany so when the aircraft arrived in Spain they were minus their engines, propellers, armament and tail fins. To compound the issue the jigs and technical drawings were also unforthcoming. So as 1944 came to a close and with no sign of the much needed parts to complete the airframes Hispano Aviacion would change the aircraft in 1945 so that the Hispano Suiza 127-89 engine could be used and these were known as the HA-1109-J1L but the engine was replaced by the 127-17 and a new designation of K1L was given to the aircraft.
It wouldn't be until the 1950s when the definitive version of the Buchon, originally given the designation HA-1109-M1L, would be built when a 1,600-hp Rolls-Royce Merlin 500-45 was installed, giving the aircraft a top speed of 419 mph, and as a result gave the Buchon a distinctive cowling compared to its Bf 109 predecessor. Armament would consist of a pair of 20mm Hispano Suiza cannons and eight 80mm rockets and this flew for the first time on the 24th March 1954 and when this type entered service two years later it was known as the HA-1112-M1L Buchon. The reproductions from Buchon to Messerschmitt were built from the HA-1112. No early Buchons would still be in service by the late 50s or 60s.

I seem to remember that Germany sold Switzerland Me 109Gs near the end of the war and they were so badly made that the swiss wanted money back from Germany post war.

I believe a German manufactured Messerschmitt(The E Model ) is static in a museum in Spain ( Think its the Air Force Museum, but don't quote me ).

Yes the Spartan is better because its a Mini C-130, faster than the caribou, same engines, cockpit and mainly the same cargo pallets, as the Lockheed Hercules but cant do the ultra short field performance the Caribou did and the Radials on the Caribou sounded lovely and the pilots loved it. The RAAF took a long time before picking the Spartan due to that performance issue.Two Caribous are with HARS in NSW and maintained by them in their retirement.

Cheers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:31 pm 
Offline
Group Captain

Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:05 pm
Posts: 719
Location: ELP
A Buchon as a Buchon is fine with me. The airplane had a long career with the Spanish Air Force and seeing one in the flesh at the Spanish Air Force Museum rated pretty high with me.

_________________
Had God intended for man to fly behind inline engines, Pratt & Whitney would have made them.

CB

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/jinxx1/Desrt_Wings.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:23 pm 
Offline
Flight Lieutenant
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 143
Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
I've always wondered why people get so het up about the Buchon when it is put in Luftwaffe markings, or is converted to a DB powerplant.

I don't ever see the same hostility towards CAC built Mustangs, CCF built Hurricanes, or Westland built Spitfires.

(And the list could go on!)

It's simply a 109 built under license by another company, in a different country, (like the the CAC Mustangs built post WWII), and just so happens to have an alternative engine.

As experienced Warbird pilot, and as someone who has flown both a genuine BF109G (Black 6) and various Buchons, I'll leave you with the words of Cliff Spink: -

"I sometimes get a bit irritated by 'experts' who say that the Buchon is not a real 109. It is, and it was developed in much the same way as other aircraft that had different powerplants put in them as they went through their operational life"

Cheers

Paul


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:09 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club

Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:33 pm
Posts: 4205
Location: refugee in Pasa-GD-dena, Texas
If they weren't built from factory jigs and drawings that changes the complexion of things quite a lot. That would make them reverse-engineered replicas of the originals. It'd be interesting to hear about technicians experience with trying to mix Buchon and original Messer' pieces. This discussion brings to mind the Fieseler vs Morane issues involving the Storch. At what point did they become derivative of the original? I know some folks don't consider any Morane-built to be original Storch even tho France became the sole producer while Fieseler continued on with other projects.

_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
We are the WIX, We're family..a team..Ya know, just like Tom & Jerry..
"Be Good To Each Other"...Jim Leroy, 1961-2007
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Grunt on CH-37
DBF


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:35 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 2:43 am
Posts: 2328
Location: New Zealand
Invader26 wrote:
Many of the Buchons had German fuelages and components....



None of the survivors do, (despite what some owners would have you believe), all have been checked. Even the earlier Tripala on display in Madrid is all Spanish built.
Amazing how many of the original 25 German built fuselages have 'survived.' :roll:

The Buchons are a 1950s Spanish licensed built derivative of the Bf109, no more, no less. Has a history all of its own, including combat.

Be nice to see one fly in Spanish colours one day and I believe there is an initiative underway to get one of the ex Edwards aircraft there to do just that.

_________________
Classic Wings Magazine
http://www.classicwings.com


https://www.facebook.com/#!/ClassicWingsMagazine

Preserved Axis Aircraft
http://www.classicwings.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], valdez25 and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group