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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:50 am 
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If you are going to go to the trouble of modeling a desert P40 crash scene, wouldn't you think you'd at least put squadron codes on, add more bullet holes and 'gasp' even the shark mouth of 112 Squadron?

Why would you take all that time to model what to me appears to be a P40E that got lost on a ferry flight and put down in the desert? And to what end to you go to that much detail in the cockpit, down to the red dirt and stuff behind the instrument panel?

If there is one thing I hate about these boards, is the instant negative slant to anything that might possibly be a fantastic find. Between the Burma Spits and this P40E I feel like Oddball in "Kelly's Heros" "Enough of the negative waves!" We've got Tighar to save those for.

Not one of us here is going to lose a night's sleep over this, but to me, the thought of this being the real deal and recovered for display makes it worth the wait to find out.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:07 am 
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The closeup of the radio hatch actually does show some very faded squadron codes. It appears to be "HS," making the aircraft from 260 Squadron.

SN


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:47 am 
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I came to that conclusion that it was a 260 Sqn RAF machine wayyyy back on page 1.
Now I don't own a flying Kittyhawk but I do work on them on a Daily basis,
I have three underway in my workshop at the moment and feel even though I may not be an expert. I do know every rivet and piece of structure quite intimately. So I feel that I can place a fair comment on these shots. As for the reduction gear/ cowl damage what is visible was not an uncommon occurrence. The cowling front bulkhead ie: the dishpan is an .080 sheetmetal structure with only a doubler riveted in the centre of the pan this is still visible in the propellor shot as being well buckled. This item attaches to the cowls sill in place with Dzus fastners. There are also four cowl rails with four alloy forgings. And in my experience these forgings snap in an impact.
As for the canopy sliding, the canopy is connected to four bearing cages which in turn hold four bearings these bearings roll in an incredibly close tolerance extrusion and is operated by cables. A few grains of sand would jam this unit rather solid. Also to operate the cockpit canopy crank you need to lift the lever under the actual crank to lift the locking pin out of the backplate. If this is not done correctly you lock the canopy and it cannot be realized from the outside with out a lot of stuffing around and that's on an aeroplane with a well lubes canopy.
I personally think these shots are genuine, I just wonder about the actual date of the photo's.
But hey I'm no expert.
Cheers,
Ash.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:31 am 
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I agree 100% with Ash, real for sure. Just another thing to add, there is a crack in the front right windscreen viewed from the cockpit shot, this externally visible in the front views, also the canopy is open approx 2" and if viewing through the small open gap on the left you can make out items outside on the ground that match very closely to what can be seen on the ground in one of the front shots. Cockpit and access panel/side images are absolutely spot, weathering is as expected and some of the internal shots tie up with the external shots.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:32 am 
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Fascinating!

Agreed with the others that the first pic does not look right. However, I've traveled the desert and the a few desolate beaches...and the first time I see something abandoned out in the open, it never looks real until you get closer to it.

Hey, didn't the pilot in the book THE LITTLE PRINCE crash land in a P40 in the desert?? :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:53 am 
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The hi-rez pics are great. Can one of you gurus do a hi-rez on the second pic? I can't see the code HS and would like to be able to see that. Also any suggestion of a color flash on the tail.

Thanks to Buz for the crash detail showing the crumbled chin cowling which visually answers my question about the "prop blade" shaped thingy.

Let's summarize what we actually know.

1: Type P-40

2: Variant (six-gun) P-40 E---Kittyhawk 1a (Kittyhawk 1 was four-gun)

3: Code HS= 260 Sqn RAF

4: Roundel type A.1 (There is not even a hint of color change indicating insignia variation post-JUL42)

260 Sqn had this type a/c on strength from FEB42 to SEP42.
Type A.1 roundel used until JUL42.

So this plane was lost/written off between FEB42 and JUL42 while serving with 260 Sqn.

Who has the records detailing this organizations losses during that time period? Be sure they are a/c losses and not exclusively pilot losses as we do not know if the pilot bailed out, walked out, was captured or killed.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:06 am 
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Pathfinder wrote:
The hi-rez pics are great. Can one of you gurus do a hi-rez on the second pic? I can't see the code HS and would like to be able to see that. Also any suggestion of a color flash on the tail.

This one?


Image

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:17 am 
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While there's no way to establish a time line as to when these two shots where taken relative to each other, there is a lack of clouds in the first shot.

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Image
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:28 am 
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That would be extremely cool for me if it's a 260 SQN airplane, since at the moment I'm actually flying a p40 that's painted up as one.

Here's a link to a photo flight in which I took Stocky Edwards, 260's highest-scorer, up in the airplane in 2009.

http://www.airic.ca/html/stockp40.html

I'm on an iPad at the moment. I can't seem to post pictures. Go ahead if anyone else would like to.

Dave


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:31 am 
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Quote:
If there is one thing I hate about these boards, is the instant negative slant to anything that might possibly be a fantastic find. Between the Burma Spits and this P40E I feel like Oddball in "Kelly's Heros" "Enough of the negative waves!" We've got Tighar to save those for.




EXACTLY!!! :drink3: :supz:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:19 am 
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Quote:
A model, fake/photoshop or genuine?


Since this is the question posed BY THE AUTHOR OF THE THREAD I find it odd anyone would complain about the responses.

But having said that this is the same board where posters regularly bash:

1. People with no surname usernames.
2. The Air Force Museum
3. Planes of Fame
4. The CAF
5. Fanstasy of Flight
6. Non pilots.
7. Museum volunteers
8. Warbird restorers
9. Static displays
10. Chuck Yeager
11. Pappy Boyington
12. Paul Allen
13. Flugwerk
14. Moderators
15. Darryl Greenameyer
16. Kermit Weeks
17. Then there the re-enactors who never served bashing real veterans.


I think I'll stop here.

I happily defer to the P-40 owners, pilots and restorers who think it's real. So since it's real who owns it?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:57 am 
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Me. *pulls on boots and books a flight to Libya*

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:12 am 
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If it is real or fake one thing is certain, the topic sure is entertaining. :drink3:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:25 am 
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PinecastleAAF wrote:
So since it's real who owns it?



If it's lend-lease, then I'm the owner: The US taxpayer!

(I think I'll put a Merlin in it...)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:42 am 
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Its a British ordered Curtiss Kittyhawk IA so it belongs to a British taxpayer and I volunteer to take ownership!

No lend lease.

Also, 260Sqn and a pilot called F/Sgt Sheppard flew in that unit, must be a relative and also known as 'Shep'! (Dad was a F/Sgt Sheppard but not this one!)

From 'Stocky' Edwards book.

By the end of August, 260 Squadron was back to a full contingent. New pilots had been arriving throughout the months of June, July, and August. Flying Officer G.E. 'Jeff' Fallows, a quiet and unassuming New Zealander became known as a reliable pilot and later became Deputy Flight Commander. Flight Sergeant W.L. ‘Shep’ Sheppard, who would also become a Deputy Flight Commander, "was probably the bravest of the lot," according to Eddie Edwards. The Englishman joined the squadron in July and flew in 'A' Flight. "He was shot down and crash-landed twice on our side of the lines. He was shot up a few times before he asked to be moved to 'B' Flight to change his luck. He flew with me on many missions," Eddie recalls. "He was shot up on two occasions with me, however, he never missed his turn to fly and face the enemy. Eventually, he succeeded in shooting down the 109's. His courage and determination was admired by all of us."

regards

Mark 'Shep' Sheppard

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