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Classic Wings Magazine Luftwaffe Resource Center WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific
Final Cut-The Post War B-17 Flying Fortress and Survivors - 5th Edition


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:12 pm 
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51fixer wrote:
N3Njeff wrote:
The close up shot of the access panel, you can see what looks to be wet splattered on it, I would assume the picture takers sweat???? Looks pretty real to me!

Probably oil splatters from lubing the canopy rails tp open the canopy which had been shut forever.



Ok, looks to be oil but if the canopy was closed, is the pilot still in it??? Did he bail, prob not so he probably walked out, would he have closed the canopy behind him??? Maybe so..................fun aint it? :)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:19 pm 
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From the few WWII airplanes I have seen in situ in the wilds of the Canadian North the parts exposed to the weather are completely scoured of paint. In my opinion this would be how it would have looked in 1955 not 2000 and something. As suggested by others I think the surrounding terrain would have resulted in greater damage to the P-40 than is evidenced in this photo unless there was more sand covering the area at the time of the forced landing and has since blown away. Regardless of what the true story is about the photo it makes for some entertaining speculation.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Mike your the man :D Since I too work with several different software applications I believe you have something there. I'm certainly not going to count out a very well done computer spoof. There's some extremely talented people who can computer generate almost anything convincingly these days. Good luck to the winner of this debate :drink3:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:32 pm 
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Certainly plausible IMO.

Reminds me of the Long Range Desert Group (LRDG) wrecks that were found in 08
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See also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRiQ-Y2VLsM

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Speaking of authentic or fake, how about this photo.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:40 pm 
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My Harvard sat in Mesa, AZ from 1964 to the early 80's. The weathering and coloration in the cockpit are stunningly similar. The comments about throttle position are hilarious. Like, the guy that took the pictures couldn't possibly have grabbed it and moved it, right? So real I can practically smell it from here.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:55 pm 
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Mark Allen M wrote:
Speaking of authentic or fake, how about this photo.

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Fake


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:15 pm 
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That Fw photo is obviously fake...models, CGI and photoshop (the B-24 formation may be a real photo.)

I'm getting a bit of a chuckle out of this P-40 debate (I think it's real myself.) The first reaction here was "Can't be real, must be a model." Over on one of the bigger model forums, they're saying "Can't be real, ain't a model, must be CGI." I wonder what they're saying on the CGI forums.

One of the "gotta be CGI" posters claims that there's no way the prop and gearbox could have been torn out like that but leave the cowl panels intact. Any P-40 mechs here have any input?

SN


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:37 am 
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mike furline wrote:
With the first picture enlarged and some contrast thrown in, you can see a digital square around the vertical stab. I believe this may indicate an altered image.

Image


That 'distortion' could be classed as heat haze around a hot metal airframe in a desert??

I am hoping it is real but the more I think about it, it could be real from 1960/70's and long since gone.

Seems the 'officaldom' in the UK (RAFM/AHB) know nothing unless they are keeping quiet as well to secure recovery.

Yep, Kittyhawk IA - serial AK? or ET/EV???

Just need a picture of the code!!

regards

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:10 am 
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51fixer wrote:
N3Njeff wrote:
The close up shot of the access panel, you can see what looks to be wet splattered on it, I would assume the picture takers sweat???? Looks pretty real to me!

Probably oil splatters from lubing the canopy rails tp open the canopy which had been shut forever.


If you look closely you may see that there is actually no evidence that the canopy has been opened. In the image of the instrument panel, the forward frame of the sliding canopy can be seen opened only a couple of inches or so, as it is in all the other images. Note that the L/H side of the sliding canopy (in one of the images) "appears" to be intact, however, obviously the L/H side of the clearview transparency is broken with milky fragments. If it is real, the photographer may have simply put the camera through the broken clearview area to take the image of the instrument panel?


mike furline wrote:
One of the "gotta be CGI" posters claims that there's no way the prop and gearbox could have been torn out like that but leave the cowl panels intact. Any P-40 mechs here have any input?


I'm not saying it's "gotta be CGI", I'm just saying that in my personal opinion, I doubt it's real but hope I'm wrong.



Anyway... it's providing great entertainment.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:06 am 
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51fixer wrote:
Wildchild wrote:
mike furline wrote:
With the first picture enlarged and some contrast thrown in, you can see a digital square around the vertical stab. I believe this may indicate an altered image.

Image


...Hmmmmmmmmm...

Verdy Intrevesting...

Wonder if you hit the sharpen image button when messing with a standard photo would do this?


I spend a great deal of time messing with photoshop and this pixelation around the edges is something that you often see between changes of colour. No idea why though.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:17 am 
[quote="James D"][quote="51fixer"][quote="Wildchild"][quote="mike furline"]With the first picture enlarged and some contrast thrown in, you can see a digital square around the vertical stab. I believe this may indicate an altered image.

I would like to jump in as both a Modeller and as a Bit of a P-40 nut. This aircraft to me looks to be real, the pixilation which as stated occurs at times between changes in colour also occurs when images have been saved a number of times as JPG's.......so I don’t believe we can use that to confirm or deny the existence of this aircraft.

To the aircraft (or not), its most certainly a Kittyhawk I or Ia (H-87 or P-40E-1) a better shot of the fuselage would have been nice, as even without a serial we would at least have a model. The paintwork is about right (what remains of it), showing a A type marking, which would push this aircraft toward having arrived in North Africa before AUG 1942....with that amount of weathering it’s hard to tell if there was any over painting of the markings.
You are also looking at an aircraft that has been modified with the baggage door modification, which leads me to believe this to actually be a real aircraft. Other things in favour of this being a real aircraft is the damage to the skin, the position of the stick to the position of the flight surfaces, and the only missing items from the instrument panel. All the fasteners are of the correct type, and in the correct position, and finally the actual crease in the fuselage is in the exact position it occurs on a real bellylanded Kittyhawk (If you have access look up what a Kittyhawk looks like after the fuselage gives on a belly landing - if not hit me up and I'll try find a couple for you (think I have one or two in my collection)).

Above someone asked if this is a normal way for the gearbox and prop to detach, I will say a big yes.....seen a number of times, and has also been known to happen to other types with a forward gearbox (Spitfire etc)

From a Modelers point of view - The tearing from the Bullet holes in the fuselage is one of the hardest things to get right as a modeler (I believe these to be post crash as well), if this was a model then those bullet holes have been made by someone that makes my skills unworthy of even being mentioned in the same sentence. The loss of rivets below the baggage door is also another clue (we are talking about skills to die for here), the tearing of the skin, the wrinkles etc also point to someone of uber supreme skills. That being the case I can count the known modelers on two hands, and something like this is hard to hide as this would have come out before now. Additionally to even attempt to make a model in such a way the requirement would be of a kit around the 1/32 (which some exist) or even larger (which don’t as yet). The weathering of the skin is also something incredibly hard to replicate in the manner that it is shown, whilst weathering is able to be done, the weathering to the markings and the baggage door markings are uber hard to get right. The actual Mod on the baggage door is also possibly a point to use, as this is not on any kit I have seen, nor do most modelers even know of its existence, again its inclusion would show someone that also knows the aircraft inside and out

Overall, based on what I see I’ll take a punt and say real……..if not an it proves to be a Model I’m giving up modeling and taking up knitting, as I’ll never be able to look at another kit again in the same light.

Buz


Last edited by Buz101 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:30 am 
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Thanks Buz! Nice to see you (back) here. Thanks for elaborating on the door latch question - as they say, I didn't know that.

The cockpit is of a real Kittyhawk, as is the close up port shot. Given the limited number of surviving Kittyhawks and P-40s and that none of them have ever (or are) in a position to 'model for' those two images, put the question beyond doubt for me.

The other, more distant images have a few oddities in presentation and image details, but nothing in the content or subject that flag concerns, IMHO.

As to the other model discussion, just to add some weight, FWIW, I've been involved a a fair number of model photos pretending to be the real thing (model magazine publisher and national level model show judge among other things...) and a few CGI ones as well and I can't think of any image that's withstood the scrutiny as discussed here.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so, and I do think it's an exciting find.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:26 am 
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Same as posted on Key but added to.

Additiinal discussion points.

Looks like the airframe is from 260 SAAF. You can see the HS code to the left of the fuselage roundal. Codes were small which fits. Trying to 'see' if there is the remains of an individual letter on the right. There is a vertical bar but not sure this is just a filler line? Otherwise ID letter could be B, D, E, F, H, K, M, N etc - a few options. (Looking again, it does look like the outline remains and more likely B, E, F or H. (horizontal bar visible as well as the vertical)

260Sqn took over Kittyhawks in Feb 1942 and moved to Theatre.

Least it is one squadron to look at!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crash ... a_1942.jpg

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205211935

some reading

http://www.smashwords.com/books/downloa ... -pilot.txt

regards

Mark

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:46 am 
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Looks real to me. The desert is huge place and I'm surprised more stuff hasn't been found...


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