NASM Skyraider 135332

[Ken]

http://tailhookdaily.typepad.com/tailho ... hat-s.html

Saw this interesting link to the history of the Skyraider currently stored in Washington DC. Understandably, Navy vets want the aircraft restored to its Gulf of Tonkin appearance and AF types would prefer to see it wearing green. Tough call.

I'm in the AF camp, but have to concede that, if the airplane's AF service was mainly as a trainer in FL, its naval history is more compelling. The flip side is that, other than 665 in TN, nowhere can an authentic SEA single seat A-1H/J be seen in green. The aircraft on display in Pensacola, credited with the Navy's last operational A-1 sortie wears grey and represents well. Tough call.

Ken

[APG85]

Great article! I'd vote for the Navy markings myself...and I'm an Air Force guy...

[Ken]

One aspect of displaying this plane did not come to mind when I posted above. If it's to be a factory-fresh restoration, then US Navy markings make sense. If it's a "preservation" effort, then it would likely remain camo.

This tail was one of the 4 Tallichet helped rescue from Thailand. The airplane was, with 95% certainty, wearing green when it escaped Vietnam. Stories indicate that all Vietnamese markings were hastily painted over when escaping airplanes arrived in Thailand.

Photos of the 4 seem to indicate that they were all repainted in Thailand sometime prior to returning to the US, including a Thai cobra insignia on the fin. The photo of 332 on the Smithsonian web page was probably taken close to its arrival in Maryland in the early 80's - and the paint in the photo appears fairly fresh.

So, for options:

1-Preserve as is, with potential post-war camo applied between 1975-1982.

2-Remove as little paint as possible to reveal her Vietnamese or USAF markings.

3-Strip her bare and make her look new for display - possibly wearing Navy grey.

Again, tough call.

[Jack Cook]

The Air Commando AD-5s in 1965-67 were gull gray and white

[Ken]

You're right, Jack. AD-5/A-1Es flown, once the USAF got officially involved, from at least '64 through sometime in '67 were grey. Most folks are familiar with Bernie Fisher's mount on display at NMUSAF in the scheme she wore on his MOH mission in '66. I don't have the reference in front of me, but I'm fairly certain that those A-1Es were repainted in a 2-tone COIN grey scheme, not kept in Navy colors as some sometimes suggest. If anyone has the spec handy, please share.

#135332 is a different story. My understanding is that the airplane in question (an AD-6/A-1H) transferred from the Navy to the USAF in '67, flew as a combat crew trainer in Florida, was transferred to SEA, and subsequently handed over to the VNAF. It escaped to Thailand in '75 and was turned over to NASM around '82. It most likely has been wearing green since '67 ... which was my point about preservation vs. restoration.

Although I have seen VNAF single-seaters in grey, I don't believe I've ever seen a photo of a USAF A-1H/J in anything other than SEA camo, with variations of black substituted as the belly color. Not saying it never may have happened, just that I've never seen it.

[Ken]

Do we have any WIXers who work or volunteer at NASM, U-V, Garber??

[Garth]

My take is that, assuming that a historically-relevant aircraft (any one, not just this Spad) needs to have paint removed anyways (I don't agree with the repainting of the EB-57, for instance), it's better to paint that aircraft in the markings that it wore during it's period of most historic-relevance.

For example, Enola Gay wears the Circle-R tail code that she wore on the Hiroshima mission, not the later markings (forward-facing arrow head) of the 509th - which she also wore (imho her nose gear should also be painted zinc chromate, but that's another discussion entirely). Or the mission symbols under the AC's windows.

This isn't to say that there isn't some leeway (Bockscar would look ... weird ... without the noseart. Which it didn't carry on the Nagasaki mission), or that there are sometimes tough decisions to make on which period of historic relevance is most relevant (Swoose, for instance).

With all due respect to the USAF-leaning folks and their feelings on this, I'm with the Navy-leaners on this: the most relevant thing about this Skyraider is that she took part in the Gulf of Tonkin/Pierce Arrow mission.

[RMAllnutt]

My take is that, assuming that a historically-relevant aircraft (any one, not just this Spad) needs to have paint removed anyways (I don't agree with the repainting of the EB-57, for instance), it's better to paint that aircraft in the markings that it wore during it's period of most historic-relevance.

For example, Enola Gay wears the Circle-R tail code that she wore on the Hiroshima mission, not the later markings (forward-facing arrow head) of the 509th - which she also wore (imho her nose gear should also be painted zinc chromate, but that's another discussion entirely). Or the mission symbols under the AC's windows.

This isn't to say that there isn't some leeway (Bockscar would look ... weird ... without the noseart. Which it didn't carry on the Nagasaki mission), or that there are sometimes tough decisions to make on which period of historic relevance is most relevant (Swoose, for instance).

With all due respect to the USAF-leaning folks and their feelings on this, I'm with the Navy-leaners on this: the most relevant thing about this Skyraider is that she took part in the Gulf of Tonkin/Pierce Arrow mission.

Actually, I don't believe you are correct about the repainting part. That may have been policy at one time, but NASM has had a standard, for many years now, of preserving every element of an aircraft that can be preserved, which includes nuts, bolts, and even paint. Unless the paint is in very poor condition or there is serious concern for corrosion, NASM stabilizes it, and leaves it as is. Case in point being the P-38 at Udvar-Hazy, which looks a little ragged, but is totally authentic (and even flown by Dick Bong on trials work at Wright Field). You should read Robert Mikesh's excellent book "Restoring Museum Aircraft" for a more complete explanation of NASM restoration policy. You are right that some aircraft have been fully restored, like the Fw-190 and Enola Gay, but both of these aircraft had suffered extensively from outdoor storeage. The days of the "factory-fresh" restoration at NASM have been over for some time. Hopefully, with the case of the Sky Raider, they can gently sand back the paint to reveal one of her original paint schemes... now that would be cool!

Cheers,
Richard

[Garth]

The days of the "factory-fresh" restoration at NASM have been over for some time.

Not too sure about that. The C-121 was returned to "factory-fresh" condition (or, rather, mint condition for her service in the WV ANG) and the Helldiver - which was previously restored by NMNA - will be repainted in the markings worn by the late Director Engen when he flew during the Battle of Leyte Gulf. Enterprise got a complete workover. She wasn't so much damaged as just plain dirty and worn (as with the P-38) when she first rolled into the Space Hanger - at the time I had an annual parking pass and stopped by weekly to watch as they did the cleaning and repaint.

I've also been told by NASM docents and curatorial staff that the P-61, which is fascinating to look at given that there are several sets of markings visible, will eventually be restored as well.

I'm sure NASM has some kind of calculation by which they weigh whether, and to what extent, an aircraft is restored. I don't expect that they'll repaint Flak Bait at all when she goes through the new restoration shop because she's both a historically-relevant (individually) aircraft that's wearing her original paint, although do I wonder if they'll do anything to cover up the areas of bare metal left by decades worth of touching/rubbing/scraping by visitors to the NASM Mall WWII Gallery.

[mustangdriver]

My take is that, assuming that a historically-relevant aircraft (any one, not just this Spad) needs to have paint removed anyways (I don't agree with the repainting of the EB-57, for instance), it's better to paint that aircraft in the markings that it wore during it's period of most historic-relevance.

For example, Enola Gay wears the Circle-R tail code that she wore on the Hiroshima mission, not the later markings (forward-facing arrow head) of the 509th - which she also wore (imho her nose gear should also be painted zinc chromate, but that's another discussion entirely). Or the mission symbols under the AC's windows.

This isn't to say that there isn't some leeway (Bockscar would look ... weird ... without the noseart. Which it didn't carry on the Nagasaki mission), or that there are sometimes tough decisions to make on which period of historic relevance is most relevant (Swoose, for instance).

With all due respect to the USAF-leaning folks and their feelings on this, I'm with the Navy-leaners on this: the most relevant thing about this Skyraider is that she took part in the Gulf of Tonkin/Pierce Arrow mission.

Garth, if the EB-57 you mention is the one at the NMUSAF, it is being painted back in it's own markings that it wore in Vietnam. I am happy to see aircraft at the museum getting markings more inline with their actual markings, but I like the scheme it carries now.

[Ken]

Anyone here got connections at U-H or Silver Hill for some insight on when airplanes like this A-1 or Flak Bait might emerge?

[Pat Carry]

Anyone here got connections at U-H or Silver Hill for some insight on when airplanes like this A-1 or Flak Bait might emerge?

Those planes are years away from being on display. With the lack of work going on the planes currently in the new restoration area and the overall lack of money things are not looking good there for anymore planes going on dispaly for quite some time.

[Marauderman26]

Do we have any WIXers who work or volunteer at NASM, U-V, Garber??

yes, you do.

[cwmc]

With umpteen Skyraiders flying and on display in this and several other countries I'd think that reassembling Flak Bait and displaying it as a whole airplane would be way more important than it seems to be to the Smithsonian.
Chris...

[Pat Carry]

Do we have any WIXers who work or volunteer at NASM, U-V, Garber??

yes, you do.

Marauderman26, can you fill us in as to what is happening at Udvar Hazy in regards to the restoration shop?