Warbird Information Exchange

Hello I am trying to find out information about P-35A's that were stationed in the Philpines during the early stages of WWII. It is my hope to finish my replica P-35A in these colors. However other that the color (OD) I have hit some road blocks with my research. I have found a couple of photos but there seems to be no consistant markings.


Is the bottom "standard light gray" or is the entire fuselage OD? The second problem I noted is that the fuselage star is not painted on the fuselage on some, but painted on others. Was the prop unpainted aluminum or was it painted black? Would it have had the red/blue stripped rudder like the OD early P-40's?








Also the COLOR of the tail code is sometimes white, black or yellow, what is correct? Also the TAIL CODE is everything from "4MP" (what pursuit group is that 17, 34th ?) to "24P" or "34P". How was the flight/AC number determined "20", "23" ect? I appreciate any explanation or correction to my questions.





Here are some really good scale models of P-35A's: (But is the paint job accurate?)

In the summer of 1941, a number of P-35As were painted with a temporary water base OD on the upper surfaces. The color pic you posted
of the boneyard at Iba shows the affects of tropical weather that finish. At the time all the pursuit squadrons were part of the 4th Composite group, hence the designator 4MP. M for composite, P for pursuit. Bombers of the 28th Bomb Squadron were marked 4MB. There was obviously as evolutionary process regarding standardization of markings and camouflage on P-35As after the 4th Composite was disbanded any they became part of the 24 Pursuit Group. Most but not all appear to have been
painted in permanent OD and grey, with the typical one upper and one lower wing corcarde as well as on the fuselage, and U.S. Army underneath. I've seen pics of one P-35A destroyed at Nichols that was still in NMF finish. Apparently, some just had the plane in group number and others had the 24P designator as well. Oddly enough, I've never seen a pic of a 24th Pursuit P-40 with the designator. Some P-35As also had the number 1 added as a prefix to the plane in group number, indicating they were slated for transfer to the Philippine Air Corps .

I would have to say that the markings on the first model pictured are incorrect, at least regarding the 34P designator. If they had any at all, the 34th Pursuit Squadron's aircraft would have had the 24P marking along with the plane in group number, most likely in black. The 34th's aircraft were hand me downs from the other squadrons that had converted to the P-40 and were issued to the 34th when they arrived in the PI less than 3 weeks before the war started. They likely had a number of different markings.

The same inconsistancies in markings and camouflage regarding the fighters also applied to the bombers, especially the B-17s transfered from Hawaii to form the 14thBS, most of which retained their 5th or 11th Bomb Group designators.

Duane

Hey VCS1, how about some pics of your P-35 project. What did you start out with? What ???? Thanks

Sorry just NMF....................

P-35

2Lt Hughes 20th PS Del Carmen Field, PI 1941

ditto

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Duane, thank you for the information. You cleared up allot of my questions. However I just to clarify if the tail code (and aircraft number on the nose) would be WHITE, YELLOW, or BLACK? The wrecked P-35A picture you mentioned is this one? (Notice the AC# in white or yellow?)



Here is a picture of another "captured" P-35A:



Jack, I like the NMF birds too! (or anything related to the P-35 through P-47) but how about a paint scheme that would be different than the Weeks FOF or Chino POF painted examples??!! (here is another shot in color)



Tex-Fan. My P-35A replica really did not start out with much "orginal parts". I was able to purchase a small bit of wreckage of a P-43 from a private collector. (The P-43 and P-35 in the aft fuselage/vertical and rudder are virtually the same)



The rest I will have to make from scratch! I was able to aquire all the surviving blueprints for the P-35/AT-12/P-43 series of aircraft. Since that time I have been making parts for my project:







Please visit www.P-35.com for more information about my project.

VCS1:

I can't say for sure if the numbers in the wreck at Nichols are white or yellow. My guess would be white, per the color shot from Iba. Yes, the wreck in the backround is the NMF bird I was refering to.

By the way, great shots of the captured birds. Never saw those before. Are they published or from your collection? You'll notice that the tail markings on that ship are black. Bottom line, perhaps due to the frenzied activity just prior to the start of the war, there was not much standardization
in markings on aircraft from the 24th PG or the 19th BG for that matter, despite an effort to achieve it. The study of aircraft from those two groups is my favorite subject in military avaition. Back in 2002, during a trip to the Philippines, I was lucky enough to spend some time with veterans of the 34th and 17th Pursuit and the 28th Bomb Squadron, all of whom were
survivors of the Bataan Death March.

Regards,

Duane

VCS1, i'll bet there are no "real" flying P-35As [are there?] so you guys are recreating history! Very ambitious indeed. Very best of luck to you, and thanks for sharing. P.S. when you get it flying, please consider attending an air show in Texas with it. All us Texans would LOVE to see it.

According to the Squadron/Signal publication # 1601,
P-35 IN ACTION,
the 34PS, while in the Phillipines in 1942, used black lettering on the tail section of an OD airplane. The underside was neutral gray.

According to Hobbycraft:
P-35A based at Nichols Field, Phillipines, 4th Composite Group, in January 1942, used OD on top with Neutral Gray undersides with yellow lettering on tail and nose.

According to Squadron/Signal Publication
AIR FORCE COLORS VOL. I 1926-1942
The P-35 aircraft in the North Carolina Manuevers in November 1941 used OD on top with black lettering on tail and on the nose.
Also, P-35A used by 24PG at Phillipines November 1941 used OD on top with Neutral Gray undesides with yellow lettering on tail section and on the nose.

So, depending on time and place, yellow or black lettering was used. Could find no photos or profiles that indicated white lettering was used.

The wrecked P-35 in the photo with the number "25" on the nose, which some believe to be the airplane used by Boyd D. "Buzz" Wagner, used yellow paint for the nose lettering.

There are photos out there and suitable reference materials.
Good Luck with your research.

TM

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"Welcome back Mr. Lasky."

Wagner's P-35A was No. 17, at least while the 17th Pursuit was equipped
with them.

Duane

Some of the film used back in the 1940's made the yellow very dark almost black.
Can't think of the type of film at the moment but maybe someone else will.

Rick

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Ortochromatic black and white! Same happened with red and the opposit with blue.

Wow! Thanks to everyone for their research and information. To answer Duane's question, the pictures I posted are not from any private collection. I have been searching the internet and many vintage magazines and books for ANY P-35/P-35A pics for years. As a matter of fact here are some screen captures from a vintage WWII film. It is a 24th PS P-35A with the "1" you mentioned in front of the plane number.



Here is another pic from the same film:


I have also posted all the information I have about the 60 P-35A aircraft that were taken over and given serial numbers by the USAAC. Here is the cover page for the document that covered the conversion from EP1-106 to P-35A:



Here are the serial numbers w/Squadron assignment:

Serial Number Sqdn Group Home Base
 41-17434 20PS  4CG Nichols Field, PHI 
 41-17435 3PS  4CG Clark Field, Pampanga, PHI 
 41-17436 17PS  4CG Iba, Zambales, PHI 
 41-17436 17PS  24PG Iba, Zambales, PHI 
 41-17437 20PS  4CG  Nichols Field, PHI 
 41-17438 17PS  4CG Iba, Zambales, PHI 
 41-17438 17PS  24PG Iba, Zambales, PHI 
 41-17439 3PS  4CG Clark Field, PHI 
 41-17440 20PS  4CG Nichols Field, PHI 
 41-17441 20PS  4CG Nichols Field, PHI 
 41-17441 20PS  4CG Nichols Field, PHI 
 41-17442 17PS  24PG Clark Field, Pampanga, PHI 
 41-17443 HQSQ  20PI Clark Field, PHI 
 41-17444 3PS  Nichols Field, PHI 
 41-17445 17PS  24PG Iba, Zambales, PHI 
41-17446
 41-17447 3PS  4CG  Clark Field, PHI 
41-17448
41-17449
 41-17450 20PS  24PG  Clark Field, Pampanga, PHI 
41-17451
 41-17452 17PS  24PG Nichols Field, Rizal, PHI 
41-17453
41-17454
41-17455
 41-17456 17PS  4CG Nichols Field, PHI 
41-17457
 41-17458 20PS  4CG Nichols Field, PHI 
 41-17458 20PS  4CG Clark Field, PHI 
 41-17459 3PS  4CG Clark Field, Pampanga, PHI 
 41-17460 17PS  4CG Iba, Zambales, PHI 
41-17461
 41-17462 17PS  24PG  Clark Field, Pampanga, PHI 
 41-17463 3PS  24PG Iba, Zambales, PHI 
41-17464
41-17465
 41-17466 3PS  24PG Clark Field, Pampanga, PHI 
 41-17467 3PS  4CG Nichols Field, PHI 
 41-17468 20PS  24PG Clark Field, Pampanga, PHI 
 41-17469 17PS  4CG  Nichols Field, PHI 
 41-17469 17PS  4CG Iba, Zambales, PHI 
41-17470
 41-17471 17PS  4CG Nichols Field, PHI 
 41-17472 3PS  4CG Nichols Field, PHI 
 41-17473 20PS  24PG Clark Field, Pampanga, PHI 
 41-17474 62PS  56PG Charlotte AAB, NC 
41-17475
41-17476
41-17477
41-17478
41-17479
 41-17480 17PS  4CG Iba, Zambales, PHI 
41-17481
41-17482
41-17483
 41-17484 20PS  4CG Nichols Field, PHI 
41-17485
 41-17486 3PS  4CG Clark Field, PHI 
41-17487
 41-17488 3PS  4CG Clark Field, Pampagn, PHI 
 41-17489 3PS  4CG Nichols Field, PHI 
41-17490
 41-17491 17PS  4CG Iba, Zambales, PHI 
 41-17492 3PS  34PG Clark Field, Pampanga, PHI 
 41-17493 3PS  4CG Clark Field, Pampanga, PHI 

right-click, save
right-click, save
right-click, save
right-click, save
(repeat ad infinitum)

highlight-copy-paste-reset tabs-import into Excel- save






Thanks to EVERYONE who's contributing to this thread, ESPECIALLY VCS1... every single one of these photos has been new to me, and I sincerely appreciate everyone's continued contributions here. VCS1, have you considered series production, so we could get Frank Fuller's bird airborne again?



Cheers all-

Lynn

Hello Again,
Thanks for all the kind words. I am considering building a run of three P-35A's, but right now I am just building the mockup aircraft. Just wanted to post some more pics of a scale model I built that hopefully will be the colors of my replica when completed:

So I in looking the photos I had earlier posted I noticed something, I actually have the side and forward shots of "25" based at Clark Field.

This picture is looking forward:


These pictures are looking to the side: (The one in the tail number was added for transfer to the Philippine Air Force according to this thread)





So I now had a paint scheme to base my project on. Now for the issue of colors you were right ,yellow looks black in black and white pictures! I tried to copy the markings as the rest on the thread had suggested.










I now have to figure the serial number for #25. It was assigned to the 24th pursuit group, 17th or 20th pursuit squadron? Hopefully time will reveal the ID of this P-35A.

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