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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:10 pm 
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Nathan wrote:
So sad...may I suggest moving the museum to someplace where flooding will never be a problem?


I was thinking the same thing. Several questions:

1) This is not without historical precedence. After Hurricane Andrew, Kermit Weeks moved his entire museum out of Tamiami due to the Hurricane threat.

2) Will the Museum recover from this at all or will it be the death knell for it and result in it's closure and liquidation?

3) Surely, all of the airplanes and museum exposed to salt water will be considered a total loss. This is not to say that the warbirds will be disposed of, but will probably necessitate total rebuilds.

4) Will this result in the museum moving away from the hurricane zone?
Why not move it to some place like San Antonio? With S.A.'s huge tourist industry, many people, military connections and retirees, I would think it would be in a better spot to promote the museum and give it lots of visibility and business. I still think the greatest mistake the CAF made was NOT moving to San Antonio. Sure, they got a lot of short term financial advantages when they moved to Midland, but you can't tell me that long term the CAF is in an advantage for headquartering in Midland. Case in point - look where the B-29 and B-24 have moved to? If nothing else, look how hard it is for volunteers to get to Midland for work? I would venture to say that with San Antonio's large population base, there would be many, many more active volunteers. It's one thing when you can drive to an Air Museum to volunteer, versus, taking several flights and having to go through DFW, Love Field, etc. to get there. It CAN make a big difference.

Does anyone think that LSFM will survive this and rebuild in Galveston?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:44 pm 
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I am MORE then willing to help, am an A&P, pilot, CAF member, and have access to an airplane (and will fly anyone to the island as needed, when not at work).

HOWEVER
I think it is too dangerous to keep such valuable artifacts in harms way.
West Houston, Sugarland Municipal, and possibly Houston Executive will be more then happy to host your museum.

I know it will not be easy, but once the human issues are taken care of, big decisions will need to be made.

I saw the photos, and it is really shocking to see how extensive the damage is even though the building itself is basically intact. :(

Best of luck!

Joe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:06 pm 
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warbird1 wrote:
3) Surely, all of the airplanes and museum exposed to salt water will be considered a total loss. This is not to say that the warbirds will be disposed of, but will probably necessitate total rebuilds.

4) Will this result in the museum moving away from the hurricane zone?
Why not move it to some place like San Antonio? With S.A.'s huge tourist industry, many people, military connections and retirees, I would think it would be in a better spot to promote the museum and give it lots of visibility and business. I still think the greatest mistake the CAF made was NOT moving to San Antonio. Sure, they got a lot of short term financial advantages when they moved to Midland, but you can't tell me that long term the CAF is in an advantage for headquartering in Midland. Case in point - look where the B-29 and B-24 have moved to? If nothing else, look how hard it is for volunteers to get to Midland for work? I would venture to say that with San Antonio's large population base, there would be many, many more active volunteers. It's one thing when you can drive to an Air Museum to volunteer, versus, taking several flights and having to go through DFW, Love Field, etc. to get there. It CAN make a big difference.

Does anyone think that LSFM will survive this and rebuild in Galveston?


This is SHORT term exposure to salt water. As the recoveries of a Ju-88 and FW-190 from the sea 60 years after they sank shows that aluminum will withstand salt for a LONG time (they will not fly, but are fine display models).

Of course certain items like radios and instruments are a loss.

Magnesium will need to be inspected for corrosion.

The engines could be salvageable, again depending if corrosion was found on critical parts.


They do not need to move to San Antonio, and it may not be an ideal place. Dallas could be better because it already has the CFM and a CAF branch.

Houston may still be a GREAT place to host the museum. The CAF West Houston (IWS) branch suffered very little damage, being some 60~70 miles from coast.

I am here to help, just call!
(flying to the airport may be best way, considering the damage.)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:39 pm 
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Much as I'd like to see it close to where I live, I doubt SA is the answer. My city's failed several times on this count. :evil: :x From what I've heard I think that eventually the Lewis collection will be on display - but a think that a major hangup is where on earth to put it. There's room for more hangars at Stinson - but things move REALLY slowly as far as the airport is concerned - just ask me about the runway extension that's been in the works for years... (Don't, please!).
Also the fact is that Galveston and LSFM had an apparently good base of volunteers and members in the area - and unless they relocate, any move would be difficult. What are you going to do, get a whole new volunteer, pilot, and mechanic base? Houston and Galveston have had and probably will have $$ and people who are willing to support the warbirds, so that's probably where it'll have to stay.
I reckon after this, they will be working on contingency plans for any future weather events.

Ryan

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:21 pm 
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I'll just lay this right out there for any other warbird lovers looking for a swell place to park their investments in the future. I'm thinking less than a mile from the saltwater coast in the heart of "hurricane alley" is really starting to look like a less than perfect long term gamble. Call me crazy... I'm just sayin'!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:48 pm 
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i like the dallas idea, we can use more warbirds up here, only diffiuclt decision would be where to volunteer at. :D

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:06 pm 
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Flying Pencil wrote:
This is SHORT term exposure to salt water. As the recoveries of a Ju-88 and FW-190 from the sea 60 years after they sank shows that aluminum will withstand salt for a LONG time (they will not fly, but are fine display models).

Of course certain items like radios and instruments are a loss.

Magnesium will need to be inspected for corrosion.

The engines could be salvageable, again depending if corrosion was found on critical parts.




As I understand it, even short term exposure to salt water is VERY detrimental to aircraft metal surfaces. Who's to say it will be short term? First off, Galveston's families and infrastructure have to be taken care of. I've heard it could be one month before the electricity is even restored to the island. Add to this the human element - taking care of the people, and their homes and I'll bet the museum and it's warbirds will come last on the priority. So, it might be several months before a recovery of any kind can even be initiated. That is more than enough time for major corrosion to set in. That's the whole point of what I was getting at. There are several flyers which will be affected by this, including the Spitfire, Hurricane fuselage, F3F, PB4Y restoration, and several others.

There are two recent examples of warbirds that have been subjected to short term salt water exposure. One is the Collings foundation F4U-5 which was ditched out in the ocean and the NASM's Boeing 307 which ditched in Lake Washington. Even though both were very short term exposures to salt water, the two airplanes were pretty much subjected to total rebuild's. This is not to say that all of the metal needs to be replaced, but the aircraft have to virtually be disassembled, cleaned, washed, and reassembled again. Any way you slice it, these are going to be major restorations which will cost a LOT of money!

Flying Pencil wrote:
They do not need to move to San Antonio, and it may not be an ideal place. Dallas could be better because it already has the CFM and a CAF branch.

Houston may still be a GREAT place to host the museum. The CAF West Houston (IWS) branch suffered very little damage, being some 60~70 miles from coast.


Perhaps not San Antonio, but they definitely need to move away from the Gulf away from potential Hurricane exposure. Is the LSFM willing to be subjected to the threat of total museum annilation every year? After this insurance claim, I'll bet that the museum's insurance will absolutely skyrocket! Can the museum afford to take this risk of losing everything again, by staying in Galveston?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:24 pm 
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RyanShort1 wrote:
Much as I'd like to see it close to where I live, I doubt SA is the answer. My city's failed several times on this count. :evil: :x From what I've heard I think that eventually the Lewis collection will be on display - but a think that a major hangup is where on earth to put it. There's room for more hangars at Stinson - but things move REALLY slowly as far as the airport is concerned - just ask me about the runway extension that's been in the works for years... (Don't, please!).


How has the city failed? Who says that the museum would have to be within San Antonio city limits? There is a TON of land in and around both San Antonio, Austin and points in between in the Hill Country. I don't think Stinson is the answer for a potential San Antonio LSFM location. There are other places which are probably better.


RyanShort1 wrote:
Also the fact is that Galveston and LSFM had an apparently good base of volunteers and members in the area - and unless they relocate, any move would be difficult. What are you going to do, get a whole new volunteer, pilot, and mechanic base? Houston and Galveston have had and probably will have $$ and people who are willing to support the warbirds, so that's probably where it'll have to stay.
I reckon after this, they will be working on contingency plans for any future weather events.
Ryan


Just by moving 200 miles to the West, would not necessarily dictate a "whole new volunteer, pilot and mechanic base". I know many of the volunteers for Lone Star live in other parts of Texas, so it wouldn't necessarily be starting from scratch. By virtue of it's location, if it were to move to San Antonio, or nearby, would make it a lot easier commute for the volunteers to get to. Also, with 2 major cities nearby (S.A. and Austin), and the huge military presence, I would think it would be much easier to establish a new volunteer base. I don't think this would be as huge an obstacle to overcome as you believe it would be.

As far as contingency plans, it sounds like Lone Star did as much as they humanly could to mitigate the risk. With supposed "hurricane strength" hangars, surge wall protectors, flying out the airworthy airplanes, what else could they have done? The fact remains, that if the museum stays at it's present location, you CANNOT move hangars, static airplanes and displays. They will always be at risk. I don't believe there's much else they can do in the future, short of changing locations or building a virtual "Fort Knox" style hangar and museum. Again, I ask, is this really worth it, just to stay on the island?

I have a proposal that would benefit two parties. Why not combine Rod Lewis's collection and the Lone Star Collection at one airport somewhere in San Antonio, Austin or the Hill Country? Land is still very cheap on the outskirts of S.A. Why not have Rod Lewis and the LSFM approach the city about building a purpose-built airport to house both aircraft museum's? They could make it a world-class facility, museum and airport to showcase our aviation heritage. Just a thought! :D


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:48 pm 
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Is that the Sino-Swearingen prototype in the background? Would be a shame for that project if it was a write-off.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:03 pm 
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You know, I know this is a current topic, and a hot one at that, and I'm all for saving warbirds and the artifacts, but honestly, don't you guys think we're jumping the gun a bit on this? The folks at LSFM mostly are still trying to get power, water, and figure out if they can even go home. I'm SURE that there will be plenty of discussions amongst them in the future after things have settled down and they will have to answer some tough questions.

Ryan

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:53 pm 
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warbirdcrew wrote:
Quote:
Image


Is that the Sino-Swearingen prototype in the background? Would be a shame for that project if it was a write-off.


Looks like a Falcon 10 :shock:

Lynn


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:57 pm 
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Looking over the pictures breaks my heart and I would like to help. I’ve always admired Lone Star’s willingness to send aircraft to airshows far from home for all of us to enjoy. So I looked over the membership page:
http://www.lsfm.org/membership.html
Unfortunately I don’t think I can talk the book-keeper (wife) into any of these options. Living near the other end of I-35 with my "warbird budget" pretty well stretched about the option I could pull off would be a +/- $50 membership for a "Friends of LSFM" type opportunity.

Just thinkin out loud...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:00 pm 
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Lynn Allen wrote:
warbirdcrew wrote:
Quote:
Image


Is that the Sino-Swearingen prototype in the background? Would be a shame for that project if it was a write-off.


Looks like a Falcon 10 :shock:

Lynn



Nope, it is the prototype Sino-Swearingen SJ-30.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:06 pm 
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RyanShort1 wrote:
You know, I know this is a current topic, and a hot one at that, and I'm all for saving warbirds and the artifacts, but honestly, don't you guys think we're jumping the gun a bit on this? ...
Ryan


No, it is not.

They cannot use Galveston any more. They need to think of a new base to bring salvaged items for cleaning and preservation. Sooner the better.

I can think of 2 airports in Houston that will work for long term.
>Sugarland, but am not sure if they will welcome a museum.
>Houston Executive, way west of Houston. Its a BRAND new AF, LOTS of space, and the owners are willing to host the museum for the attention and sales it will bring them.

>Hooks to north is crowded, and close the big airport, so that is very unlikely.
>Deer Park is still close to bay, but not as vulnerable, but I do not think a good pick.
>Houston SW is too small.
>West Houston is also tight, but it may be possible to host them, at least temporarily.
>Ellington is too close to bay, Hobby airport, and has a lot of commercial operators.

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warbird1 wrote:
Flying Pencil wrote:
This is SHORT term exposure to salt water. As the recoveries of a Ju-88 and FW-190 from the sea 60 years after they sank shows that aluminum will withstand salt for a LONG time (they will not fly, but are fine display models).

Of course certain items like radios and instruments are a loss.

Magnesium will need to be inspected for corrosion.

The engines could be salvageable, again depending if corrosion was found on critical parts.




As I understand it, even short term exposure to salt water is VERY detrimental to aircraft metal surfaces.


Salt is only corrosive when wet.

The faster they can dry out everything, the better.
Then when ready wash it off in tanks and hoses.

Obviously the size and complexity of what it is will influence how fast they can treat it.

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