Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:28 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Ace Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:18 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:06 pm
Posts: 1757
Ok, question.

Why does it seem that in WWII that German "ACES" had 40x more kills then American "ACES".

Does that mean that we had more pilots with less kills and they had less pilots with more kills , or did the Germans inflate kill ratios?

This just came up, because everything I read about a German ACE, the dude has like 37, 40, 80, kills.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: ace
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:29 pm 
Offline
Probationary Member

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:53 pm
Posts: 3803
Location: Aspen, CO
The Germans fought until the end of the war, they didn't go home after certain no. of missions.

_________________
Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:32 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:51 pm
Posts: 4663
Location: Cheshire, CT
IMHO, I think the main reason is that the German's were fighting air combat long before the U.S. got into the scrap. Their pilots didn't get sent home either. They just kept flying with no "mission" requirements to be rotated back home. If the US was in as long and didn't take good care of our pilots, we might have had aces with a lot higher scores, but many of them would probably have been killed before the war was over.
Jerry

_________________
"Always remember that, when you enter the ocean or the forest, you are no longer at the top of the food chain."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: aces
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:51 pm 
Offline
Probationary Member

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:53 pm
Posts: 3803
Location: Aspen, CO
At the start of the war, the Germans had experienced pilots from the Spanish war and the ME 109 was far better then Russian planes, and about equal to Spitfire or Hurricane. When the Americans came in the 109 was superior to P-40 and P-38, especially.

_________________
Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:56 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:28 pm
Posts: 2184
Location: Waukesha, WI
Who started the classification of "Ace" and when? Was there an international agreement that 5 kills constituted an Ace?

Were the Germans considered Aces after 5 kills or 20 kills? Did each nation fielding pilots determine their own "Ace" criteria?

Thanks,

_________________
"There are old pilots and bold pilots but few old, bold pilots."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: ???
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:56 pm 
Offline
Co-MVP - 2006
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 11:21 pm
Posts: 11468
Location: Salem, Oregon
300 hour or 50 mission combat tours and we wern't fighting the Russians.
The Germans flew until they were dead.
Ray Toliver compared Bob Johnson with Molders (I think). When Johnson ended his tour with 27 kills Molders at the same point had 6-8 kills but then kept flying 100s of more missions.

_________________
Don't touch my junk!!


Last edited by Jack Cook on Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:12 am
Posts: 901
Location: Just outside of Grosse Ile N.A.S.
When a German pilot was shot downover Germany, if they survived, they would be back in te plane as soon as they could. When an Allied pilot was shot sown over Germany, they spent the rest of the war in a prison camp.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: aces
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:00 pm 
Offline
No Longer Active - per request

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 1493
Deleted


Last edited by Former Member on Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Gunther
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:26 pm 
Offline
Probationary Member

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:53 pm
Posts: 3803
Location: Aspen, CO
John, I did not get a chance to get his book when he was there. What do you think of it? I spoke to him once at breakfast years ago at a forum and he seems an impressive guy. I got a chuckle when he talked at EAA about earning his private pilot license a few years after the war. It might be wading in pretty deep water for some young post war instructor to be "teaching" a man with 275 victories, who has flow both 109 and 262. He definitely said at the start of the war the Russians were inferior in both planes and tactics and it was almost like slaughter. Some of the top aces fought against Brits and Yanks in Mustangs, P-47s, Spitfires at the end of the war and proved their ability.

_________________
Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:51 am
Posts: 365
Location: Ypsilanti, MI
sdennison wrote:
Who started the classification of "Ace" and when? Was there an international agreement that 5 kills constituted an Ace?

Were the Germans considered Aces after 5 kills or 20 kills? Did each nation fielding pilots determine their own "Ace" criteria?

Thanks,


There is no formal international "ace" requirement. Different countries rewarded victories in different ways.

_________________
Phil K.
Yankee Air Museum
Systems Admin / Ramp Crew / Professional Photo Ruiner


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:34 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:43 pm
Posts: 7501
Location: northern ohio
the term "ace" dates back to ww 1 & was 1st applied to roland garros. the word "ace" was popular in france & applied to about anyone who was good at something, "like this person is an ace athelete" or this person is an ace game player. when garros's flying exploits hit the papers in france they used the term ace & it stuck. as to the ww 2 axis & all the mega victories, the pilots simply weren't rotated home. they flew till they died, or luckily lived to see the end of the war, so many racked up amazing tallies because they were literally stuck at the front.

_________________
tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gunther
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:52 am 
Offline
No Longer Active - per request

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 1493
Deleted


Last edited by Former Member on Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:33 pm
Posts: 912
Location: Beautiful Downtown Natick, MA
You won't meet a nicer gentleman "ace" then C.E. Bud Anderson. When I first started volunteering at OSH, I had the honor to "guide" him several times while volunteering on the line crew, not like he needed a lot of my attempt at direction. Always polite, always gracious. He flew with some other rather ornery guy quite often... :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:10 pm
Posts: 648
Location: tempe, az
I read once that the average of kills per missions flown would have given American pilots similar scores if they had flown as much as the Germans.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:14 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 5:42 pm
Posts: 6880
Location: The Goldfields, Victoria, Australia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_to ... ar_II_aces

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DH82EH, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 84 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group