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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:36 am 
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I suspect you're right Shrike. Incidents like these are tailor made to draw attention away from the economy, and polarize voters for both parties. But you gotta admit, the incidence of events like Aurora and Colmbine and Sandy Hook are on the increase. As I said before I don't have gun death data, and I don''t know if it's really a growing problem or just gum flapping, but I'd like some attempt made to reduce the incidence of mass shootings if we can. I'd also like a reductin in the number of school buses that drive over cliffs, and cults that decide to self-immolate. Well maybe not the cults thing. :twisted: But you know what I'm saying, right? Is the increase of mass shootings really statistically a problem? Is it out of the norm or are we just getting upset about something that is and has always been part of life?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:08 am 
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Trust me I do understand both sides much clearer than you may think and even though I may come across as one of the gun grabbers as it's put, my concern is much, much deeper than just the guns. My stand has been much broader than just the guns, but to say there's not a problem is nieve. There is a problem and there has been for many, many years, long before the recent tragedies occurred. Taking away or severely restricting people's right to have and acquire guns is not the issue I'm most concerned about and I'm sure you don't need to hear from me that "guns don't kill people, people kill people", anyone with rational thought can concur with that. My strongest point in this whole debate is the fact that our culture in this country is the overlying problem, not the guns, but the culture of thinking there seems to be no better solution than to kill others with guns when life is too difficult to handle. Murder, suicide, violent crime will never go away, but I'm still an optimist and I believe if we all collectively work for solutions to these issues, we won't need to look at the gun debate as closely as we are today.

Many of you may, and justifiably so, feel that the guns are not the main problem, I will always agree with you there, but when the guns do have something that adds to a much larger problem, where are your thoughts and concerns? If guns are a contributor to a problem and that problem requires a solution, what are your thoughts? What solutions do you have that do not affect your 2nd amendment rights? That's the conversation I'd love to see develop here. Again to say there is not a problem? I'm not so sure about that.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:15 am 
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A gun is a tool, a in animate object, that cannot function in any form, unless acted on by a outside force. Blaming a gun for violance is like blaming a pencil for spelling mistakes.
There was a mass stabbing in texas, 14 people slashed with a knife, do we need knife control ? No blades over 1inch and no pointed tip, no sharpened edge sounds reasonable to me...

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Jack, You have Debauched my sloth !!!!!!
We tried voting with the Ballot box, When do we start voting from the Ammo box, and am I allowed only one vote ?
https://www.facebook.com/shoot.the.guns.of.history


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:55 am 
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Cataloging the ills of American society would take us even further off topic, but a few that occur to me.
The cult of the victim and the exultation of the irresponsible. Something goes wrong in your life, sue, it must be someone's fault, and ideally they should have deep pockets. God forbid you should admit to a poor choice, or making a mistake, it must be someone's fault for not preventing you from making that choice. It couldn't be that you are wrong (or an idiot)
News based solely on fear-mongering. "Something in your house can kill you!! Tune it to see this SHOCKING story" Polls have shown that people feel less safe today, yet violent crime statistics are lower than they have been for decades. Happy content people don't spend money on alarm systems, pass bonds for police, or accept their civil liberties being eroded for 'the greater good' (TSA, DHS et c.)
Polls in general for that matter. From Facebook likes, to American Idol, to endless exit polls before and after every election. Polls are so easily manipulated by the form of questions, tabulation of results and selection of sampling that the results for the most part are meaningless, but they are reported as gospel by all outlets, and used to reinforce the opinions and herd mentality of partisans in any question. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not every opinion merits equal weight.

I could go on, but there's a start, all of them combined with the 10sec sound bite that tries to reduce any issue to it's shallowest, and the desire for a 10sec fix as well

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:02 pm 
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Matt Gunsch wrote:
A gun is a tool, a in animate object, that cannot function in any form, unless acted on by a outside force. Blaming a gun for violance is like blaming a pencil for spelling mistakes.
There was a mass stabbing in texas, 14 people slashed with a knife, do we need knife control ? No blades over 1inch and no pointed tip, no sharpened edge sounds reasonable to me...



It's only a matter of time. Just remember, "It's for the children." :vom:

Mudge the suspicious

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:42 pm 
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One reason people say they feel that they are less safe is that they are not willing to be responsible for their own safety, they want someone else to be responsible. They want a cop to escort them everywhere.
I feel safer because I take the responsibility for my safety, I do not rely on the police. The police are there to fill out the paperwork......

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Jack, You have Debauched my sloth !!!!!!
We tried voting with the Ballot box, When do we start voting from the Ammo box, and am I allowed only one vote ?
https://www.facebook.com/shoot.the.guns.of.history


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Matt you seem to be one who is hard set in your beliefs in one direction with what also seems to be no peripheral vision, of which you're entitled. I have no problem with it, but you may want to re-read the posts in this thread, no where does anyone suggest blaming 'the gun' for violence. Certainly not from me anyway, so that old adage of "Blaming a gun for violence is like blaming a pencil for spelling mistakes" has no weight here with me. You've had your experiences with the 'bad outcome side' of the use of a gun, I'm sure you certainly don't see it that way as you were certainly justified in defending yourself, and again that of which you are entitled. I see it as tragic no matter the reason or outcome and I'm entitled to think that way as well.

I respect your stance and I will never want to change your attitude, that's your business and prerogative .... but I would certainly enjoy hearing any thoughts, solutions or ideas you personally may have on the issue of gun control that are less sarcastic and more logical, or even if you think there is a problem that requires a solution at all. It would be one thing if I were the only person concerned about what is going on in this country with the use of guns, and I could be easily swept aside, but if you haven't noticed recently, there is a widespread concern (more like outcry) for something to be done to try to find some sort of solution to the violence.

Again if there is anyone who thinks there is no problem other than the big bad Government and a bunch of bureaucrats wanting nothing more than to take away more of your rights. Just go pay a visit to some of the parents of 20 recently killed kids. I'm not a fan of Government and politics anymore than most, but I certainly can tell the difference between a Governments attempt at scare tactics and threats towards gun owners as opposed to the real legitimate problem with the way 'guns' are used to harm in this country.

The overwhelming fundamental problem is NOT the gun, it's the culture of the way 'the gun' seems to be the only answer to many lost and confused people who cannot cope with life on life's terms. My father once told me "Son whoever told you life was fair" it's been stuck in my head all these years and has helped me through some hard times as we all have had. The subject of War and the use of weapons is a whole different tragic conversation, but to use a gun to kill innocent people simply because your sad and feel life is not fair is NOT an option any longer and one that needs serious study by ALL of us including whose who own guns and those who don't. If you can't even take a look and listen to the other side of the debate even just a little bit I fear we are doomed to continue with a serious problem that many here seem to think we don't even have.

And as I see I'm slipping more into the minority in this conversation, I shall simply state I know when to quit. Nothing more needs to be said on my part. But so as you all know I may not agree with your opinions but I respect your rights to your opinions. That once again is a right of mine by way of the 1st amendment as much as your right to the 2nd amendment. Don't lose sight of that.

But again this is WIX so maybe those rights are null and void :wink:

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Last edited by Mark Allen M on Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Mark...You're right. We need solutions. But the "solutions" that our officials offer are motivated by "knee jerk". More thorough background checks are not the solution. Yes...they may stop some crazies from obtaining firearms but then there's the dude in Texas that slashed all those students with an Exacto knife. He's said to have stated that he used that small blade because his knife with the longer blade broke. Had he used the knife he planned on using, there'd have been fatalities. So how do you stop the crazies? You don't! Unless all states are willing to make psychiatric records available to the NICS (which, IMHO, they should) you're gonna' have sickos with guns. Getting guns on the street is an entirely different matter. I'd be willing to bet that I could leave the house right now and come back with a "hot" handgun before dinner.
And if you don't think our officials in DC are trying to take our guns, (or at least make them harder for everyone to obtain) take a look at Diane Feinsteins gun bill. Then there's the bills that have come before the Senate that would put a 1000% tax on ammunition.

Anyway...Don't go away. You have some insightful opinions.

Mudge

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Your right, I am set in one direction on this matter, I believe the Bill of Rights to be the law of the land, and no man can infringe on those rights. There is no compromise when one side has everything to lose and the other side has nothing to give. Should we compromise on the 1st ? or the 3rd ? 4th? 5th? Surly you would not care if they do away with the 3rd, since it has never been used, or how about a compromise on the 1st, lets register all TVs, radios, and computers, since they can be a influence to how people think and be used to spread propaganda, and we all know how dangerous that can be. You have nothing to hide, so why do we need the 4th ? and if your honest, then you will not need the 5th.

The camel got his nose under the tent after 1960 gun control laws and we were told then that it would stop the violence, well, the camel is in up to his shoulders and we are told that it will stop gun violence this time.....

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Jack, You have Debauched my sloth !!!!!!
We tried voting with the Ballot box, When do we start voting from the Ammo box, and am I allowed only one vote ?
https://www.facebook.com/shoot.the.guns.of.history


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Matt...Luv ya' man but count to ten!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:06 pm 
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Well all I can suggest Matt is to try a new approach and that would be to ease up on the sarcasm and ridicule and maybe listen to your fellow citizens more than your elected officials. Maybe if you tried the approach that 'we the people', believe it or not, still own this country and that 'we the people' still have a right to be heard before there need a conclusion of "no compromise when one side has everything to lose and the other side has nothing to give". We haven't approached that extreme quite yet. But just as they did in Philadelphia when they were writing the constitution, sooner or later, you've got to compromise. You've got to start making the compromises that arrive at a consensus so we all can move forward in a logical and responsible way that benefits ALL of us and keeps our core values intact. Solutions must be based on compromises but no solution is valid unless the compromises are equal and fair, yet effective. I don't believe you would disagree would you?

One must not judge a man's legacy by his will to stand his ground, but his will to compromise.

I do enjoy this conversation as I see it a benefit to more understanding and possible solutions, but it becomes a waste of my time once sarcasm is one's only response.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:25 pm 
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But "Compromise" is not an end in itself. Particularly when, as Matt points out, only one side is expected to give anything up.
It's like compromising with a mugger, so that he only takes half your money, and only beats you half to death.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:37 pm 
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Mark Allen M wrote:
You've got to start making the compromises that arrive at a consensus so we all can move forward in a logical and responsible way that benefits ALL of us and keeps our core values intact. Solutions must be based on compromises but no solution is valid unless the compromises are equal and fair, yet effective


Did I not make this clear? .... Compromise is usually the beginning, and not the end, of a solution
But I'll state this, we can throw the words "Compromise' and 'Solution' around all day but without the word 'Willingness' it's all just blowing in the wind isn't it.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:34 am 
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Mudge wrote:
Matt...Luv ya' man but count to ten!

Mudge


I do count to 10, it is called the Bill of Rights...

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Jack, You have Debauched my sloth !!!!!!
We tried voting with the Ballot box, When do we start voting from the Ammo box, and am I allowed only one vote ?
https://www.facebook.com/shoot.the.guns.of.history


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