Similar to shooting a pilot in a parachute? ...

[Mark Allen M]

Should it have been forbidden in the Gentlemen aviators so-called "rules of engagement" handbook?

Me 262's were alleged to be downed by the following fighters from what I've looked up:

Spitfire IX and XIV
P-47D
P-51D
La-7
Tempest

The 8th Air Force were alleged credited with 139 kills against German jets of all types and 110 air to air victories over the Me 262. The 56th FG got 7 equipped with the P-47 and the 78th FG and 353rd FG downed a couple more before transitioning to P-51's. The P-51 alleged to have close to 100 jet kills and the 8th AF Fighter Groups lost 12-15 fighters to Me 262's. Another source states: 125 Me 262's and Arado 234/Me 163's shot down.

It might be difficult to define exactly how many of these kills were 'during landing' - the Me 262 took a very long time to get up to full power after leaving the ground, and also had a very long approach, so technically many of the kills might be said to be during landing or take-off even when they occurred kilometers from the airstrip. In this case it was actually pretty easy once the Me 262 bases were found, all the American fighters just had to do was loiter around the airstrips and attack while they were landing and the jet throttles reduced (the German turbojets took several seconds to spool up).

Lt. Chuck Yeager of the 357th Fighter Group was one of the first American pilots to shoot down an Me 262, which he caught during its landing approach.

Most of my posted sources here:
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/p ... ills.1226/

[quemerford]

deleted

Last edited by quemerford on Fri Mar 29, 2024 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Spitty]

Early in the war British Nightfighters were downing German Bombers over their home airfields in the landing pattern off memory...

[JohnB]

Obviously, not quite the same thing as shooting a pilot descending in a parachute.
The parachuting pilot is helpless and might as well be surrendering.
If I remember the rules of war briefings we had while in the Air Force, shooting a crewmember parachuting from a disabled aircraft is against the Geneva Convention.
Not so, shooting paratroops.

The unfortunate jet pilots on the other hand were not surrendering, they were merely at a huge disadvantage due to aircraft operating limitations.
A bit like someone in a fighter trying to get the other guy in a position where he knows the enemy aircraft will stall or lose control.
Or to put it another way, a pilot takes advantage of his type's strengths and the enemy's weakness.
Usually, the more advanced aircraft has an advantage.

Certainly, 30 minutes prior to him being caught in his type's moment of weakness, the 262 pilot was exploiting his aircraft's strengths (speed) by attacking B-24s and exploiting their weaknesses.

So, it's no more "dirty" than shooting a guy who doesn't see you (in which cases many/most aces wouldn't be).
Or shooting down a "easy" kill...we have all seen gun camera shots of Ju-52s being shot down over the Med or Japanese flying boats in the Pacific.

And then there is the story of "Ye Olde Pub"... it's nice when an enemy gives " our" guys a pass, but it was probably rare on both sides.

[Hooligan2]

I believe there were instances of British fighters being destroyed while taking off/landing and also training aircraft also were attacked - Tiger Moths, Oxfords and so on.

[Spitty]

Yes during the BoB and period after hit and run raiders hit unsuspecting targets..Brits did same thing in 41 and 42.

[LysanderUK]

Shooting stuff down in the circuit was common on all sides, as said above the RAF made a habit of intruding around enemy bases and shooting stuff down as often as possible, or even strafing aircraft and personnel on the ground if they could see well enough. It was also a staple tactic of the USAAF in Europe, finish the fighter escort task and then go strafing and attacking aircraft in the pattern, don't bring the bullets back. Catching 163's, 262's etc near bases was a particularly good idea as they were so potent and hard to catch in normal flight. Get them while you could, better than trying to catch up with it tomorrow at 500mph at 25,000ft.

There's a very sensible argument that the Luftwaffe missed a trick by not intruding over the UK more often, there were occasional intrusions but nothing like on the same scale as the RAF or USAAF. You have to wonder why they didn't press this more as a way of stopping RAF Bomber Command and even the 8th AF.

[Stoney]

Clayton Kelly Gross of the 354th GP, 9th AF, author of the book "Live Bait" 6 victories, one of them was a 262.

[Mark Allen M]

Interesting to read some of the responses.

I’m inclined to believe that gallantry amongst fighter pilots during WWII was an individual choice, and perhaps even a circumstantial decision, rather than a deliberate directive. Winning the day at all costs overrode the need for warriors compassion.

[lucky52]

Forbidden? No. The German pilot was going to rearm and refuel and go shoot down more American bombers with nine or ten Americans on board.

[phil65]

That's why it's called war and not checkers. Besides being that close to an enemy base the risk of getting shot down by ground fire is increased..

Phil

[Mark Allen M]

I’ve always had a hard time buying the notion that chivalry existed much once methods of war advanced. Understandably so.

[Spitty]

I’ve always had a hard time buying the notion that chivalry existed much once methods of war advanced. Understandably so.

Maybe at the start but Total War and threat of invasion probably pushed that notion out of British pilots minds...Not to mention a lot of free European pilots who escaped..

[Xray]

That's why it's called war and not checkers. Besides being that close to an enemy base the risk of getting shot down by ground fire is increased..

Phil

Gabby Gabreski, for instance, shot down in a P-47 while strafing a jet base.
Germans well knew their installations would attract wolves, and were prepared to deal with them.

[Thread title is ridiculous btw, not going to take the bait]

[mike furline]

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/23378