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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:11 pm 
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and the NASM`s love for civilian / foreign / weird / one-off aircraft.


I do not think this either fair or correct. I was wondering about the civilian/military breakdown of NASM aircraft a year ago and so did an inventory of the entire collection, separated into "civilian," "military" and "mixed" (eg, P.51C with historic civil markings), and determined that a majority of the collection is indeed military, although many types are still unrestored.

- Recent accessions -especially among those of larger size- have been largely mil as well (eg, F/A 18-C Hornet, EA 6B Prowler, Sikorsky S-2, Sikorsky HH-52A, Sopwith Camel).

- There are very few accessions since 2003 that are foreign (the only ones I have of 44 accessions altogether are the aforementioned Sopwith and Sukhoi SU-26M [aerobatic]).

- most of the one-off aircraft in the collection are from the old Paul Garber days, and I frankly think that those add an eclectic charm to the collection that cannot be found anywhere else. Most of the recently acquired one-onlies are fairly to very historic (Julian Nott balloon gondola, Sharp Nemesis NXT, Pathfinder Plus, Story Little Gee Bee, Virgin Atlantic Global Flyer). The one exception among aircraft is a Loving-Wayne WR-3 that is an interesting aircraft built and flown by an especially interesting person (African-American, without legs) that is well worthy of NASM.

I find NASM to be an astonishingly interesting and diverse collection, like nothing else in the world except the Musee de l'Aire in Paris. The "foreign, weird and one-off" aircraft are a part of what we should expect of our premier national museum. We are all somewhat frustrated by the reduced pace of restorations (four at a time, with fairly rapid turnover in the days before Harwit), but this remains a growing and improving collection with high standards. 44 accessions (with 20 deaccessions by my count) over 18 years is quite good by any standard, especially knowing that this is not a collection that will last only for the lifetime of a person.

Concerning SSSB, my information is that this will be coming over sooner rather than later. When that happens, I assume this will be in the restoration facility for perhaps a year to freshen things up and then will go out on display, in beautiful company for the remaining lives or us and our grandchildren. This is a big project and NASM is much preoccupied by the revitalization - considerable reconstruction of interior and exterior - of the Mall Museum, so they are taking some time. As to Swoose and the B-17G, NASM kept these preserved and under cover. NASM will soon enough have a combat-record B-17 with a neat story; they showed the patience to wait for an especially good one. Give 'em a bit of slak - and pretty soon we will have the Flak!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:23 pm 
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The fact that the Aichi M6, Hawker Hurricane and Do335 were restored ahead of the B-17 makes my point. (I saw the Aichi and Hawker being worked on during a visit to Gerber 25 years ago, The 335 was restored in Germany).

Two are oddities without much historical significance they didn't add much to advance the aviation state of the art, the Hurricane of course is very important, but aside from a few being flown by American volunteers in the Battle of Britain, doesn't have a great deal of relevance to the U.S.

Now, I enjoy civil aircraft, I enjoy foreign types, but few of the "one-offs" you mention have, by any rational measure, the historic significance[/] of the B-17.

I'm not saying the aircraft you cite shouldn't be in the museum, it's the fact that they [i]were
on display there decades ahead of a very historic type, indicates derelection, ignorance or bias at the NASM.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:33 pm 
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I'm not saying the aircraft you cite shouldn't be in the museum, it's the fact that they [i]were on display there decades ahead of a very historic type, indicates derelection, ignorance or bias at the NASM.


I have followed the restorations at NASM over 45 years, and have some insight into why these choices were made. The Do.335 choice was an easy one - done by someone else, for free, and then essentially displayed in Germany until UH became available. The Hurricane was a no-brainer, besides being an especially historic type, this was as I remember largely retrieved from a junk yard to be sort-of cleaned up as part of an unofficial exchange to NASM for a British Typhoon; it looked fine on the outside but terrible within, so restoration was in order. There has been efforts to have a balance of restorations, but US and German aircraft had recieved more emphasis, with for many years the Zero being the only Japanese aircraft restored in the NASM shop, so in the early 1980s the choice of Japanese restoration went to the Nakajima 'Irving' as the paint on this aircraft had been stripped during American testing and with outdoor storage severe corrosion issues were developing (as told to me by Don Lopez). I am not sure why the Aichi Seiran was selected in the 1990s, but that aircraft had also been in outdoor storage for 12 years so corrosion issues there may have been in play; I think there was some funding from a Japanese model company that may have helped as well.

The SSSB was not restored in large part because of the magnitude of the project. A fair number of single-engine aircraft could be done with the resources for a large aircraft - the B-29 took a large portion of the restoration resources for a decade. I think the SSSB had not been outside so long as to have some of the corrosion issues that were of a more immediate concern for other aircraft. Ultimately, I think NASM took a short-cut and traded SSSB for another B-17 with combat record that was already restored. That decision will put a restored B-17 in UH and as I said in the previous message, I think the patience was worth the wait; they got many single-engine aircraft restored AND a B-17 on the same resources.

A museum has to juggle many concerns of resources, conditions and scheduling. Perhaps a B-17 could have been restored in the late 1900s, maybe instead of the B-29 or instead of the combined total of a half-dozen other aircraft (say, the FW-190, Ar-234, Voughts Kingfisher and Corsair AND the Northrop Flying Wing). Somehow, I think if that was done someone would accuse NASM for "derelection, ignorance or bias" on that decision. Frankly, in my conversatons with quite a number of NASM employees over many years, "delerection and ignorance" never came to my mind, but I may not be as perceptive as others.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:03 pm 
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With regard to Shoo Shoo Baby and the NASM, there has been some speculation, but nothing official as far as I know, that the NASM would want to at least strip the paint from Shoo Shoo Baby and prepare it for display in the scheme it actually wore in 8th Air Force service, based upon a natural metal finish. It was part of the first group of Boeing-built B-17Gs to be delivered in NMF in January 1944 and flew combat as such. When the airplane was restored for display for the NMUSAF in the 1980s, the various obvious skin repairs and skin condition was considered not viable for display. In a major concession to accuracy, the airplane was finished in the camouflage paint it now wears. This may not be acceptable to the NASM for displaying the aircraft, so there may be work needed if that's the case.

As for the Swoose, the restoration of the only surviving B-17D is a tough nut to crack given the airplane's history and condition. To which point do you restore the airplane...factory fresh or Clark Field or combat veteran or VIP transport? It is in poor shape inside and out but leaving it the way it is doesn't do anybody any good. I think a case can be made to reassemble it as it is with the parts on hand...get it back on its landing gear and put it out there on display. At least the public could see it and some nicely prepared accompanying displays could detail the story of the airplane. The major decisions and costs can be delayed and properly planned if that's what it takes.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:08 pm 
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I know I am not alone when I say I don't understand why these museums think the aircraft have to be in museum quality to be on display. I would much prefer to see a plane with some of its original paint and have flat tires and corrosion than have it locked away somewhere.

Phil

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:49 pm 
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Quote:
I know I am not alone when I say I don't understand why these museums think the aircraft have to be in museum quality to be on display. I would much prefer to see a plane with some of its original paint and have flat tires and corrosion than have it locked away somewhere.


This is what NASM has done with the Sikorsky JRS-1 (a Pearl Harbor vet). I do believe this aircraft deserves a full restoration at some time, but this is now out for all to see, and makes a good display. Swoose can be similarly evocative in a fully assembled and somewhat cleaned "as is" - I think both museums may be too preoccupied with other challenges for the present.

It is hard to be patient, but the major museums must work to a longer timeline.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:01 am 
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Regarding the Hurricane, LF686, she was a ground instructional airframe and gate guard over here for a number of years before the Typhoon swap. Not quite "rescued from a junk yard", but yes she did turn out to be in much worse condition than anyone thought.

Wood + Fabric + Tubular Steel + British Weather = Corrosion.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:03 am 
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The exterior finish on the Swoose has always been a conundrum. Apparently, the aircraft's skin is in too poor a condition to restore to NMF.No one seems to know the colors of the upper surfaces applied at Del Monte. Even if they were known, it was a shabby paint job that might not be appreciated if it's reapplied. Given that the bathtub as already been rebuilt, the idea of restoring it to VIP transport condition seems to be a mute point.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:32 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:23 am 
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Acquired back in the 80's from The Smithsonian.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:04 am 
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As a Friend of the Natl Museum of the USAF, the Foundation recently sent out a request for funds from its members for the restoration of the Swoose. I will send in 20 buks or so but how far will that go? I think it will take someone w/ deep pockets who wishes to donate substantial funds to a project like this. Then the question comes up, if the restoration of the Swoose was completed today, where do they have room to display it?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:54 am 
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Some great insights here, especially from Old Iron.

Think of the B-17 restorations that have been going on for some time. Even those with the deepest of pockets (think Paul Allen) decided to forgo restoring a Fort in lieu of restoring multiple single engine aircraft. The private restorations...well anyone can tell as far as the timelines there. More power to those guys. I mean, essentially it took Boeing, a set of other high profile donors, and legions of smaller contributions to get what is arguable the most famous B-17 in the world restored on a moderately fast time table. One could argue, that the B-17D, is somewhat like a Do335 just writ large. The B-17D played no grande part in WWII. It is essentially a one off as far as multi-engines go. A unique side show. And while the NASM and NMUSAF are wonderful museums, they aren't Paul Allen as far as money goes.

The arguments in favor of multiple single engines being restored instead of SSSB are well made by Old Iron above, with respect to the NASM. Of course the B-17 is probably the most significant type (other than the B-24) from WWII not to be present on show at the NASM. However, we can see B-17s relatively well represented to a majority of the US population in many places. They even go on tour. Do335? Not so much. Ar 234? Impossible elsewhere.

I'd say the NASM and the NMUSAF are both doing good jobs on limited resources and have world class collections presented in a world class way. We would all like to see our pet projects put at the head of the line. But there are very good reasons why some get to the front and some...languish. Usually the top of that list of reasons is money. But there is also historical significance, space available, expertise to bring to bear, etc.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:29 pm 
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More Smithsonian Swoose stuff


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:33 pm 
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Last of the Swoose stuff.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:17 pm 
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This link just happened to pop up in my Youtube recommendations tonight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E30tfJ-yskQ


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