Collings Foundation in trouble again..Warbird Adventures too

Lon Moer · **Posted:** Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:08 pm

Quote:

Press Release – FAA Proposes $247,000 Civil Penalty Against the Collings Foundation for Allegedly Conducting Unauthorized Flights

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For Immediate Release

September 4, 2020
Contact: Ian Gregor
Phone: (424) 405-7007/Email: ian.gregor@faa.gov

WASHINGTON – The U.S. Department of Transportation’s Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) proposes a $247,000 civil penalty against the Collings Foundation of Stow, Mass., for allegedly conducting unauthorized flights in a P-51D Mustang airplane.

The Mustang in question is a limited category aircraft, and FAA regulations prohibit charging people for flights in this category of aircraft.

The FAA alleges that between Jan. 17, 2020 and Jan. 30, 2020, the Foundation improperly operated the Mustang on 26 flights carrying people it had charged for flight training. The FAA alleges that before the operations occurred, FAA inspectors advised the Foundation that such flights would violate FAA regulations.

The Collings Foundation has 30 days after receiving the FAA’s enforcement letter to respond to the agency.

They're after Thom Richard, too
Warbird trainer fights FAA emergency order

Quote:

Warbird Adventures and its president and chief pilot Thom Richard have asked the U.S. Court of Appeals to issue an emergency stay for FAA cease-and-desist order prohibiting flight training in a Curtiss P-40 Warhawk trainer, arguing the agency’s actions essentially ban flight training in limited-category aircraft.........

Combatmech · **Joined:** Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:09 pm **Posts:** 116

hurricane_yank · **Joined:** Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:33 pm **Posts:** 399

Lot of airplanes going to be coming onto the auction block here soon...hopefully they stay here in America.

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11280

Lots of "allegedly" in that press release. I'm sure the lawyers will be busy.

A lot of microscopes have been pointed their way. They operated their other Mustang for years so what is different with this particular aircraft?

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:52 am

The FAA is full of it, both the 51C and TF-51D are in the limited classification
TF-51D https://registry.faa.gov/AircraftInquir ... rtxt=551CF
P-51C https://registry.faa.gov/AircraftInquir ... rtxt=251MX

EW439 · **Joined:** Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:19 pm **Posts:** 49

I believe LIMITED catagory state "may not carry people or passengers for hire" That is the main
difference between Limited and the other Standard categories as far as the P-51 is concerned.
They call it training,which is why all Collings P-51 pilots required a CFI. I believe the FAA contention
is that "training" a person in a P-51 who has no previous flight experience is not really "Trainning" it
is just a "Ride" because the trainee has no reasonable expectation of success. All of this is open
to a million points of view, both sides really have valid points. All I know is the flying community
will end up with more interpretive regulations as a result.

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7557

I had my “training” ride. Does this mean I won’t be soloing that Mustang now?

Xrayist · **Joined:** Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:51 am **Posts:** 313

Out of curiosity, there are several other originations that offer rides in various war birds. Are none of those limited category? If they are limited, how do they offer paid rides?

JimH · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:44 pm

Look at the Stallion 51 website...been doing it for 30+ years. They are considered Orientation flights and a CFI is required by the PIC and is a hands on demonstration experience.

Jim

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:28 pm

It would be interesting to know which FSDO initiated this.

Warbirdnerd · **Joined:** Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:34 pm **Posts:** 2906

JimH wrote:

Look at the Stallion 51 website...been doing it for 30+ years. They are considered Orientation flights and a CFI is required by the PIC and is a hands on demonstration experience.

Jim

To add to Jim's statement- all of the Stallion 51 Mustangs are registered in the Limited category...

Chuck Giese · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:20 pm

Xrayist wrote:

Out of curiosity, there are several other originations that offer rides in various war birds. Are none of those limited category? If they are limited, how do they offer paid rides?

Flights are through the Living History Flight Experience (LHFE). If your program is approved by the FAA, you receive an 'exemption' letter, which, among other things, exempts your organization from the regulations prohibiting compensation for limited category aircraft.

I believe that Stallion has an exemption these days, but I'm not certain. Things were done differently a couple of decades ago.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:31 pm

The only Type Certificate I found for the 51 is for the Limited category, Cal-pacific Aero is the certificate holder. There are 51s in the Experimental category, but there is no type certificate for them.
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... 0&vs=Curr#

ErrolC · **Posted:** Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:49 pm

The NZ CAA has many faults, but at least there is a reasonable set-up for 'Adventure Aviation'. None of this mucking about with exemptions. Rides in a Yak-3M under the same rule structure as one in a Spitfire Tr.9 or Anson Mk.1 (or commercial ballooning or tandem parachuting).

https://www.aviation.govt.nz/licensing- ... nisations/
https://www.aviation.govt.nz/rules/rule ... how/115/16

mtranstrum · **Joined:** Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:26 pm **Posts:** 2

The original post is not accurate. FAA regulation 91.315 does not prohibit charging for flights in this category of aircraft, it does prohibit carriage of persons or freight for compensation or hire. The FAA for years has interpretations stating flight instruction is NOT considered carriage of persons or freight for compensation or hire. You can read these interpretations for yourself on faa.gov. ( see below )
Protecting the ability to get instruction in these aircraft is of vital importance to the preservation of these airplanes and to the pilots that fly them. I hate to see the FAA change policy( without changing regulation) to shut down a particular operator. ( my opinion) Everybody else that provides quality instruction in these aircraft will pay the price.
If this change goes through ,it could open up a can of worms for flight schools. If instruction is considered carriage of passengers or freight for hire or compensation it would require all instructors to have 2nd or 1st class physicals. ( presently you can instruct with a 3rd class and in some cases no medical) The biggest worm would occur for cross country instruction. Point A to point B operations for hire require a 135 or 121 certificate. Essentially making a flight school an airline. This would be a disaster.
I wish the instructors and businesses luck in this battle with the FAA . I believe if they lose, the whole warbird community loses!

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Collings Foundation in trouble again..Warbird Adventures too

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