Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:32 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:30 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 1102
Location: West Valley, Silicon Valley
https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-news-faa-says-collings-foundation-cannot-carry-passengers-20200325-twq2alj7i5gztllf6h4p22mjyi-story.html
Quote:
The Federal Aviation Administration, citing safety concerns, has revoked the Collings Foundation’s permission to carry passengers aboard its historic aircraft, one of which crashed and burned at Bradley International Airport in October, killing seven.


:| pop2

_________________
remember the Oogahonk!
old school enthusiast of Civiltary Warbirds and Air Racers


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:50 pm 
Offline
Been here a long time
Been here a long time

Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am
Posts: 11281
"In an interview with the FAA on March 2, 2020, the crew chief verified that he received no initial training and was unaware of basic information concerning operations under the exemption."

"No seat with a seatbelt on the aircraft existed for the Collings Foundation Crew Chief."

So one of the survivors didn't even have a seatbelt? :-O

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... 11089-1673

I can't begin to express how disappointed I was reading the FAA & NTSB reports.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:37 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 1102
Location: West Valley, Silicon Valley
pop2

Quote:
While Collings produced some training records for maintenance personnel and pilots, the evidence indicates that Collings did not train the crew chief who was onboard the B-17G that was involved in the accident on October 2, 2019. The applicable General Operations Manual states that crew chiefs are assigned to every passenger flight aboard the B-17, B-25, and B-24. Crew chiefs must assist the flightcrew with duties as assigned during each flight. Such duties include, but are not limited to, assisting flightcrew with checklists and handling emergencies

_________________
remember the Oogahonk!
old school enthusiast of Civiltary Warbirds and Air Racers


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:40 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:29 pm
Posts: 4480
Location: Dallas, TX
Lon Moer wrote:
pop2

Quote:
While Collings produced some training records for maintenance personnel and pilots, the evidence indicates that Collings did not train the crew chief who was onboard the B-17G that was involved in the accident on October 2, 2019. The applicable General Operations Manual states that crew chiefs are assigned to every passenger flight aboard the B-17, B-25, and B-24. Crew chiefs must assist the flightcrew with duties as assigned during each flight. Such duties include, but are not limited to, assisting flightcrew with checklists and handling emergencies

Well, the FAA's points do seem to have some legitimate concerns. Sad. What's the old saying "for want of a nail...?"

_________________
Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:18 pm
Posts: 154
Colling's Foundation is screwed - falsified maintenance records, falsified training records did not have the proper manuals for the B-17. Improper MX, failure to preform scheduled checks.

If this is just the Mx on this ship, wonder what the pilots record indicates as well as his medical clearance.

40+ years in Commercial, Corporate, Freight and Air Tankers, I have seen sloppy paperwork, but this is bordering on gross negligence. This will open Collings Foundation up to numerous lawsuits which could easily end these flights (at least with the foundation).

I had to read the FAA report several times, and it would surprise me to find that a majority warbird flying today for these type of flights do not have the properly trained crews on board. If this B-17 crew chief was doing OJT as a FE then no way should he have been on this aircraft (for example, how many B-17 operator check the MLG landing gear struts for cracking - during WWII it was recommend every flight and 200 hrs disassembly / replace the hardware) (for example, how many B-17 operators have the FE manually check the gear extension o n land, as well as a visual ?) - for example, how many B-17 operators know how to put out a wing fire in a B-17 (chop a hole in the wing, shove the nozzle inside the cavity and fill the wing with foam) - this is all basic WWII flight information that obviously has been neglected.

If you want to question my quals - in addition to my aviation experience, I have for the past 6++ years been reading every B-17 accident report from 1944 - 1945 looking for information for my books. Over 1,000 reports and I have read some crazy stuff, but this FAA report is damning.


Attachments:
collins crash.JPG
collins crash.JPG [ 741.37 KiB | Viewed 2781 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:05 am 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:28 am
Posts: 2008
Location: massachusetts
wolf wrote:
Colling's Foundation is screwed - falsified maintenance records, falsified training records did not have the proper manuals for the B-17. Improper MX, failure to preform scheduled checks.

If this is just the Mx on this ship, wonder what the pilots record indicates as well as his medical clearance.

40+ years in Commercial, Corporate, Freight and Air Tankers, I have seen sloppy paperwork, but this is bordering on gross negligence. This will open Collings Foundation up to numerous lawsuits which could easily end these flights (at least with the foundation).

I had to read the FAA report several times, and it would surprise me to find that a majority warbird flying today for these type of flights do not have the properly trained crews on board. If this B-17 crew chief was doing OJT as a FE then no way should he have been on this aircraft (for example, how many B-17 operator check the MLG landing gear struts for cracking - during WWII it was recommend every flight and 200 hrs disassembly / replace the hardware) (for example, how many B-17 operators have the FE manually check the gear extension o n land, as well as a visual ?) - for example, how many B-17 operators know how to put out a wing fire in a B-17 (chop a hole in the wing, shove the nozzle inside the cavity and fill the wing with foam) - this is all basic WWII flight information that obviously has been neglected.

If you want to question my quals - in addition to my aviation experience, I have for the past 6++ years been reading every B-17 accident report from 1944 - 1945 looking for information for my books. Over 1,000 reports and I have read some crazy stuff, but this FAA report is damning.


WOW, you read some books about the b-17 huh. You must be an expert then.

_________________
" I am a nobody in aviation, but somebody to my family."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:05 am 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:18 pm
Posts: 3261
Location: Phoenix, Az
whistlingdeath77 wrote:

WOW, you read some books about the b-17 huh. You must be an expert then.


I guess we have to defer to the expert, unlike those of us who only have been working on 17's for the last 30-40 YEARS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:13 pm
Posts: 671
Location: Indiana
Wolf, where can we find the rest of that report?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:37 pm
Posts: 662
WIXerGreg wrote:
Wolf, where can we find the rest of that report?


I don't think that the full NTSB report has been completed yet.

_________________
"They done it, they done it, damned if they ain't flew." December 17, 1903


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:46 pm
Posts: 523
WIXerGreg wrote:
Wolf, where can we find the rest of that report?



its is linked above in a previous post.

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... 11089-1673


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:13 pm
Posts: 671
Location: Indiana
Missed that, thanks Menards.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:46 pm
Posts: 523
wolf wrote:

I had to read the FAA report several times, and it would surprise me to find that a majority warbird flying today for these type of flights do not have the properly trained crews on board. If this B-17 crew chief was doing OJT as a FE then no way should he have been on this aircraft (for example, how many B-17 operator check the MLG landing gear struts for cracking - during WWII it was recommend every flight and 200 hrs disassembly / replace the hardware) (for example, how many B-17 operators have the FE manually check the gear extension o n land, as well as a visual ?) - for example, how many B-17 operators know how to put out a wing fire in a B-17 (chop a hole in the wing, shove the nozzle inside the cavity and fill the wing with foam) - this is all basic WWII flight information that obviously has been neglected.



I agree with most of what your saying. The Foundation is screwed, the report is damning, gross negligence, etc etc...

The Wings of Freedom tour is now a thing of history. The feds put a stop to it, its over. That said, here is where you go off the rails...you chose to take a few reads through the FAA report, then come on a WIX forum and then start to infer or imply that all organizations and operators are operating their planes in a similar, negligent manner. Many of the active participating contributors to these threads are pilots, crew, volunteers, mechanics, or members of the various operators that support this passion. Many will be offended by your remarks because they all take take a lot pride in their respective contribution (however small or large it may be) to keep these memories alive. You should spend as much time and effort researching each of the organizations that operate these birds that you do reading old manuals and accident reports. Many of them in recent times made the difficult decision to ground their plans while they sorted issues. For example, FiFi was grounded for years for safety reasons until they figured out a new power plant solution. That said, there will likely be a deep dive into all operators' records. There will obviously be a lot tighter scrutiny. The feds may stop all rides all together, who knows. That said, don't come onto an anonymous message board making blanket statements about how "the majority" of warbird operators are cutting corners, neglecting regulations and don't have basic knowledge about the air frames they spent a lifetime being passionate about. It's an absurd notion.


Last edited by menards on Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:46 pm
Posts: 523
DoraNineFan wrote:
WIXerGreg wrote:
Wolf, where can we find the rest of that report?


I don't think that the full NTSB report has been completed yet.


This was not the NTSB report, it was the FAA ruling and supporting justification to rescind Collings' exemption to offer rides.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:59 am 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:28 am
Posts: 2008
Location: massachusetts
Matt Gunsch wrote:
whistlingdeath77 wrote:

WOW, you read some books about the b-17 huh. You must be an expert then.


I guess we have to defer to the expert, unlike those of us who only have been working on 17's for the last 30-40 YEARS


Exactly. I watched 12 o’clock high one time so I guess that makes me an expert too lol.

_________________
" I am a nobody in aviation, but somebody to my family."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:18 pm
Posts: 154
Matt Gunsch wrote:
whistlingdeath77 wrote:

WOW, you read some books about the b-17 huh. You must be an expert then.


I guess we have to defer to the expert, unlike those of us who only have been working on 17's for the last 30-40 YEARS


and some of us worked on B-17 / PB-1W's when they were still working air tankers, but being a big shot, big mouth must make you special. Guess you would be perfect candidate to be a B-17 FE with the Collings Foundation


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dhfan, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 310 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group