Warbirds and ADS-B

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:12 pm

So the end of 2019 is going to be here faster than most of us want and the FAA's ADS-B mandate is rapidly approaching. This article ( https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... -b-gotchas ) recently came to light and with it a lot of questions about those with Piper Cubs and Taylorcrafts, and things like warbirds that may want to stay un-equipped, or just not be easily switched over. I'm wondering if any of the warbird operators that may still frequent this board have any thoughts or experiences to share.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:12 pm

I don't want to put it in my Ercoupe, it is a $1800 piece of crap, I would rather put that money in upgrades to the plane that would actually improve it, instead of a gee whizz gizmo that does eveything but put a camera in the plane.

Lynn Allen · **Posted:** Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:21 pm

I put the Stratus ES in my C-140LA and never looked back. Works like a champ. With the 2s and my iPad, I'm ready to go...

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:40 am

The good thing is that there is the Stratus, the Sky Beacon "Wing Tip" or "Nav Light" solution, and several other "less expensive" options available that are relatively inexpensive, can be installed by the owner, and are a useful upgrade to your tracking capability (i.e. your family can know where you are better). The tax rebate is still available, so that helps too.

Here's the thing boys and girls - ADS-B is here to stay whether you like it or not. Mexico, Europe, and much of Africa have mandates in place or coming and Canada has a mandate working its way though the process too (as the helpful graphic on the AOPA article illustrates). You may not think it's useful, but being able to have onboard traffic in *ANY* aircraft which has a ADS-B receiver (whether in-panel or a "suction cup solution") and an iPAD with an app to display it, can only be a good thing for safety, especially since there are still plenty of pilots who don't think talking on a radio is a good thing when in the pattern of an airport.

Times change. Time to change with it. They gave you over a decade to save up for it. You have no excuse now.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:15 am

it does not make sense to mandate installing something that is so costly, and I realize cost is relevant, someone who owns a P-51, the amount is nothing, for those like myself, that $1800 is 1/7th the total value of my plane. The only time I can see it being useful is if you are flying into class B airports and under IFR rules, but for everyday flying, it is not needed.

If some are willing to help me defray the costs https://www.gofundme.com/mq5ey-help-me- ... c2jJArdotU

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:57 pm

Matt Gunsch wrote:

it does not make sense to mandate installing something that is so costly, and I realize cost is relevant, someone who owns a P-51, the amount is nothing, for those like myself, that $1800 is 1/7th the total value of my plane. The only time I can see it being useful is if you are flying into class B airports and under IFR rules, but for everyday flying, it is not needed.

I think that about 6-12 months after the mandate starts there will be aircraft for sale because of this. I was thinking about buying a Luscombe project, but with what I'm reading about how it looks like the FAA will be treating those who do not choose to equip older aircraft even though they've never had an electrical system and still technically can fly without it, I think I may pass and find a plane that can be equipped with the ADS-B out.

jdeters79 · **Joined:** Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:20 pm **Posts:** 146

CAF MN Wing has been equipping their fleet with ADS-B, one airplane a year, over the last 3 years. The only aircraft that won't be equipped is the PT-22. Per the FAA's Office of the Chief Counsel, aircraft that were not originally equipped with an electrical system but subsequently modified with a battery and starter are exempt from the requirement.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2017/schober%20-%20(2017)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

A26 Special K · **Joined:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:27 pm **Posts:** 2553

ADS-B will help replace radar in a lot of places eventually so it makes economic sense for the FAA to go that way. We were all put out when transponders started being required. Then Mode C and altitude encoders came along. None of these things were cheap but we eventually gave in and got them. This too shall pass when I think about ADS-B. We have equipped Special Kay and our T-33 with it. The advantages become right handy with traffic and weather info. I get what the guys are saying about proportional expenses for aircraft that don’t have the residual value to invest more, or don’t have electrical systems. Those can still be flown anywhere a transponder is not required for the most part. It’s just that nobody will see you electronically on their displays which is not exactly a good thing.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:30 am

A26 Special K wrote:

ADS-B will help replace radar in a lot of places eventually so it makes economic sense for the FAA to go that way. We were all put out when transponders started being required. Then Mode C and altitude encoders came along. None of these things were cheap but we eventually gave in and got them. This too shall pass when I think about ADS-B. We have equipped Special Kay and our T-33 with it. The advantages become right handy with traffic and weather info. I get what the guys are saying about proportional expenses for aircraft that don’t have the residual value to invest more, or don’t have electrical systems. Those can still be flown anywhere a transponder is not required for the most part. It’s just that nobody will see you electronically on their displays which is not exactly a good thing.

That is part of the problem, they have their head down in the cockpit looking at the gee whiz toys instead of outside looking for traffic

A26 Special K · **Joined:** Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:27 pm **Posts:** 2553

True, could be it takes eyes inside, but our setup works sort of like TCAS. You don’t need to spend a lot of time on it because it gives an alert if other ADS-B equipped aircraft are close enough to be of concern even if not in radar contact.

Forgotten Field · **Posted:** Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:39 pm

I'm not happy about ADS-B, but will do it to keep flying where I want to. For those who are grumping against, it, consider this: Very shortly, you will be flying with things not equipped with sets of eyes to look out for you- Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS's). ADS-B will be the most effective tool available to you to deal with UAS use in airspace.
If you think it's not coming to that, think again. From the FAA Aerospace Forecast last year:

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=89870

Quote:

The forecast also highlights the phenomenal growth in the use of Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS), often referred to as drones. The FAA projects the small model hobbyist UAS fleet to more than double from an estimated 1.1 million vehicles in 2017 to 2.4 million units by 2022. The commercial, small non-model UAS fleet is set to grow from 110,604 in 2017 to 451,800 in 2022. The number of remote pilots is set to increase from 73,673 in 2017 to 301,000 in 2022.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:44 pm

Forgotten Field wrote:

I'm not happy about ADS-B, but will do it to keep flying where I want to. For those who are grumping against, it, consider this: Very shortly, you will be flying with things not equipped with sets of eyes to look out for you- Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS's). ADS-B will be the most effective tool available to you to deal with UAS use in airspace.
If you think it's not coming to that, think again. From the FAA Aerospace Forecast last year:

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=89870

Quote:

The forecast also highlights the phenomenal growth in the use of Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS), often referred to as drones. The FAA projects the small model hobbyist UAS fleet to more than double from an estimated 1.1 million vehicles in 2017 to 2.4 million units by 2022. The commercial, small non-model UAS fleet is set to grow from 110,604 in 2017 to 451,800 in 2022. The number of remote pilots is set to increase from 73,673 in 2017 to 301,000 in 2022.

Very true. It's definitely a concern. We are dealing with the fallout quite a bit in the aerial photography business.

airknocker · **Posted:** Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:38 pm

Puddle jumpers are covered:
http://antiqueairfield.com/articles/sho ... -aircraft-

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:15 am

if you read that, it is NOT from the FAA, and there has been nothing from them concerning this. My Ercoupe classifies as Antique/classic, yet I am required to install ADSB. If your plane has an electrical system, you are screwed by this.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:18 pm

The concern is what the FAA is saying about giving preference to those who comply - whether or not those who don't have a reason, such as the aircraft being antique.

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Warbirds and ADS-B

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