Warbird Information Exchange

Aloha All,
Here is a trivia question: How many American aircraft were airborne DURING the Pearl Harbor Attack...?

To set some rules...let us state that "airborne" means "wheels off the ground"...area: within say 300 miles of Oahu..."during" means time so let us say: 0755-0955 [tho Japanese forces were over Hawaiian Territory until after 1300 hours!] Hope that solves some questions.

If you are reading this board carefully, that Myers OTW [said to be airborne during the attack] was owned by Marguerite (nee Hunter) Gambo [later known as "Ma" Wood], and often she said that she was flying that plane...her student's logbook confirms that she was actually flying an Aeronca 'tandum'.

So how many US planes? There is a spoiler at: http://www.pearlharborattacked.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard4/ikonboard.cgi?s=40f2f8373dc1ffff;act=ST;f=14;t=413 and in Stan Cohen's EAST WIND RAIN [Missoula, MT: Pictorial Histories Pub; 1994 and later editions] page 96-97.

Good luck,
David Aiken, dai toa senso kokan senshi: Shinjuwan Sakusen sensei

Rob you missed at least one P-36. Phil Rasmussen got airborne during the attack and came back with hundreds of holes in the P-36. He scrabmled to the aircraft and flew a sortie still in his pyjamas.

_________________
Dan Johnson

Just giving you a hard time. I've been lucky enough to meet Mr. Rasmussen on a few occasions, so I couldn't let him get left out.

_________________
Dan Johnson

quote="dj51d"]Just giving you a hard time. I've been lucky enough to meet Mr. Rasmussen on a few occasions, so I couldn't let him get left out.[/quote]
Aloha Dan,
Check in again with Phil Rasmussen and give him a cheer up. He has been placed in a nursing facility and has been declining. Give him my best wishes.

Check out the combat of a half dozen P-36s [including Phil] for 7 Dec 1941. He is the sole American survivor of these particular men: http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/article ... rling1.asp

TIA,
David Aiken

Aloha Colonel Roar,

Well lets see here, how did you do...very well since you did this "off the top of my Head". REALLY you did very well!

On the US Navy planes...many folk miss the idea that the US Navy had planes in the air before the attack and were diverted from their patrol to search for the Kido Butai [task force]. Sadly, for your count, VP-23 had no PBYs up before the attack and VP-8 was not based in Hawaii.

Yes, the USS Enterprise had a flight of SBDs coming to Oahu, but three times more planes than your count...and they came in without escort and the six -which you recalled- were the ones shot down [of the 18 SBDs]. I am glad you remembered the SBDs!

There were no J4F-3 in the air during the attack or that day.

On the US Army Air Corps, you got the dozen B-17s coming in from the West Coast that brings the grand total to a lot more than MOST folk! Super! Yet there were NO P-36s on CAP or airborne already...the six P-36s got airborne as cited in the earlier post. Again, you have a good memory that 2Lt. Sterling was the only American not accounted for.

On the USAAF training flights, none were airborne...no T-6s or any other USAAF training plane.

On the P-40s that got off the ground during the attack, we must remember MORE than the TORA and PH movies....MUCH MORE!

For Civilians you cited a J-3 Cub and another training flight, but none were 'spotting for Tuna Fishing' they were all training students...and the total may wake you to a new reality!

Ah, the Inter-Island flight was a passenger plane and caught on the ground at John Rogers Field [now Honolulu International].

So how did you do, off the top of your head? Your total of right answers may give others pause to reflect and engage their brains as, thus far, you have shown that there were FAR MORE American planes airborne DURING the attack than most folk would ever guess! The 18 SBDs and 12 B-17s alone bring the total to 30...yet there are many more!

I give you great praise and let us begin anew to "Remember Pearl Harbor" and the airmen of that day.

Thank you!
Cheers,
David Aiken

Aloha Colonel Rohr,
Ahhh, beautiful! Finally someone who loves aviation! Thank you for the wonderful opportunity to help listeners learn about the host of aircraft above Hawaii on 7 Dec 1941. Perhaps they, too, might join in and add their stories.

In your first responce, you said, "VP-23 had four of there (their) PBYs up; VP-8 had Six of there (their) PBYs up."

To which I responded, "Sadly, for your count, VP-23 had no PBYs up before the attack and VP-8 was not based in Hawaii." This was to give you an opportunity to modify your responce.

In setting up the trivia question, I included a time frame for the word "During". As the Pearl Harbor Survivors Association declared that membership in their organization is restricted to "ex-military only, who were located within three miles of Oahu, between 0755 and 0955"...that is the time frame I stated, though I find Japanese over Hawaii until after 1300 hours! Thus the trivia question is limited to aircraft airborne between 0755 and 0955...and the American aircraft already airborne before 0755 were still airborne during the attack.

My reply about VP-23 was addressed solely to BEFORE the attack. There were no PBYs from VP-23 up before the attack. Thus I agree with you that VP-23 did make a responce DURING the attack. However, only ONE got into the air DURING the time frame in question...I have a nice bit of correspondence from some of that crew, and from Admiral Thomas Moorer [later Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in Washington] who was senior pilot on board one of the other two VP-23 PBYs that got up after the attack.

Again, you noted that VP-8 was stationed in Hawaii. The units stationed in Hawaii were:
NAS Pearl Harbor [Ford Island]
Pat Wing Two
VP-21 [at Midway except one PBY in repair at Ford]
VP-22
VP-23 [one got up during the USS Nevada sortie]
VP-24 [four were near Lanai Island with sub USS Gudgeon]
NAS Kaneohe
Pat Wing One
VP-11
VP-12
VP-14 [three were up on patrol...one helped USS Ward sink a midget sub]
You may be thinking of earlier unit designations, rather than the designations of that Day of Infamy?

The DUCK pilot and I maintained a nice correspondence until his passing. He flew the DUCK on 8 Dec to Molokai, but the plane was not in the air on the 7th.

Ah, the P-36 CAP was an error in early stories.

Yes, the Hawaiian Air Lines DC-3A was caught on the ground at John Rogers that morning. The passengers disembarked under strafing fire...and the plane caught fire...and on the second pass by the strafer, the fire extinguisher bottle was hit which put out the fire! lol!

As to your Tuna-spotter, there were EIGHT civilian trainers airborne. Four had instructors pilots...all too busy teaching. The old CAA files were a big help as were a few flight logs of students and instructors.

There was another civilian plane in the air, within 300 miles of Hawaii...the PanAm ANZAC Clipper headed for an 0900 water landing at Pearl City, Middle Loch, Pearl Harbor!

Good call on the B-24A which arrived on 5 Dec without gun mounts and many internal items removed when the plane was on ferry missions to England. In the lengthy series of correspondence with the surviving crew members, they reveal that the plane was no where ready for their forthcoming mission. The second B-24A slated for the joint mission was still at McClellan Field. Sacramento, with nose-wheel shimmy problems.

I made an error above in agreeing too quickly that "2Lt. Sterling was the only American not accounted for"...he was the sole USAAF pilot not accounted for. There are three Coast Artillery soldiers who were flying in two civilian planes, and five crewmen from the USS Enterprise SBDs whom are also still missing.

Gordon Sterling was shot down in the ocean by Iyozo Fujita while in an aerial battle over Kaneohe NAS. Fujita has been a huge assistance in pinpointing the crash site as were the other three P-36 pilots in Sterling's flight. Read my article: http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/lost_p-36/sterling1.asp

Hope this clarifys our list of American aircraft above Hawaii thus far. Your memory is really good and I appreciate the opportunity to bring your mind into sharp focus on this topic.

So many readers have viewed Hollyweird's version of Pearl Harbor's history and credit only Taylor and Welch with anything...when there is so much more to the facts of that day...and many more airmen!

Mahalo nui loa,
David Aiken

Aloha Col, Rohr,
Glad to find us on the same page on the PBY units...had me with that VP-8 designation for a while.

Since Dec 1966, I have been working to locate, ID, and, hopefully, recover the BNR American and Japanese airmen from 7 Dec 1941. FYI, all land based crash sites in 1941 were all cleared up, while the ocean crash sites were never cleared. In 1941, all aircraft which hit the ocean became missing ....and US aircraft 'became' Japanese in the process.

Thus there are US and Japanese planes on the ocean floor with their crew still sitting in their cockpits. I have pointed out the BEST "X" for Sterling to the folks at JPAC-CILHI. They have the equipment and monies.

Oh, the 'running dogfight' was between an pair of SOCs with a Zero. I have corresponded with one SOC pilot [the other was killed in the war] and both gunners. Both sides became a draw with only damage inflicted. I have IDed the Japanese pilot, too... But that is 'for da book'.

Cheers for now,
David

Hi Colonel,
The Prange volumes speak about the two advance recce flights. At 5:30 a.m. on December 7, 1941, the cruisers CHIKUMA and TONE each catapulted an AICHI E31A1 to scout the anchorages at Pearl Harbor and Lahaina Roads, Maui. Their message back to the fleet broke the spell of radio silence that had been in effect since the fleet had sortied in late November 1941. Two hours later the CHIKUMA's float plane signaled that the fleet in port, and TONE's report was that the fleet was not at Lahaina. They were never discovered, thus not intercepted, and returned safely.

You confirm that PatWing One had three PBYs in the air, but re-read my Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:06 am post about PatWing Two.

There is no "Pearl Harbor action photo" of an airborne OS2U Kingfisher, tho two OS2Us did a reconn south of Oahu after the attack. (one of these two pilots was a coworker of mine in 1985!)

Lets see...a dozen B-17s, eighteen SBDs, eight civilian trainers, a PanAm Clipper, three PBYs from PatWing One, four PBYs from VP-24, and a cartridge in a bare tree...all 46 (FORTY-SIX PLANES!) that were airborne before the attack.

Hummm. Now it gets tricky, the rest of the planes getting in the air DURING the attack. Starting with the one PBY from VP-23 that gets in the air from Ford Island waters while the USS Nevada sortied. ...how many more???? Any one else may ring your chimes at any moment!

Remember...at the top of this thread is a 'spoiler' (the answers)!

Cheers,
David
PS: Ahhh, Robert Stinnett, a correspondent of mine in 1986...his volume (including my name in the book's index) would require a new thread...compared to his book, a skunk would smell better.

the cruisers CHIKUMA and TONE each catapulted an AICHI E13A1...NOT an E31A1...gomen nasai!

WARNING: SPOILER ANSWERS FOLLOW
Aloha Edgar A. Guest,
Interesting site...but sadly...there are enough errors to choke a .....

A good start BUT Half facts can be worse than mistakes....

To clarify on a few problems, the site says:

BELLOWS FIELD
"Three P-40s on training at Bellows attempted to take off and were shot down before gaining altitude."

There are three 'names' associated with Bellows Field...Hans Christiansen, Sam Bishop, and George Whiteman... and that has caused a HOST of writers to make conclusions incorrectly. Yes, George Whiteman got airborne and was shot down at the end of the runway. Yes, Sam Bishop got airborne next and was shot down north of Bellows Field in the ocean (aircraft later recovered). But NOT Hans Christiansen. He was killed on the wing of his P-40, not even in the cockpit.

HALIEWA FIELD
"2 Curtiss P-36 Mohawk pursuit and 8 Curtiss P-40 Kittyhawk pursuit

"The only unattacked air field launched at least 2 P-40s and 1 P-36 on three sorties each and claimed 7-8 Japanese diver bombers with the loss of a P-36 to anti-aircraft fire."

The Aichi D3A Type 99 Dive Bomber which strafed and damaged a P-36 at Haliewa sorta makes Haliewa in the 'attacked' category...the first three planes in the air were P-40s [Taylor, Welch, Dains], then came two P-36s [Brown, Rogers] and then John Webster in another P-40 (I finally got a copy of a page that Webster wrote saying P-40 instead of P-36)...and then came more pilots who did not get in contact with the enemy. One of the many was Frank B. Holmes (famous for the "Yamamoto Mission of 18 April 1943), who tried to get his engine started at Haliewa and finally had the crew chief start the P-36. There were several...thus there were more planes than the meager list given...however, a grand total will never be proven.

Few realize that, contrary to the movie TORA, the WHOLE 47PS was at Haliewa with their planes and a few borrowed planes to fill in for the ones in repair. The third sortie for many, who initially got airborne at Haliewa, was made from Wheeler...and Dains' second mission AFTER the Japanese had departed (on that 'third' sortie) was in a P-36 and crashed during his landing attempt at Wheeler.

TRANSIENT AIRCRAFT
"Twelve USAAF B-17 bombers arrived during the attack. (6-B17D, 6-B17E) They were unarmed, stripped for the overseas journey to Philippines. One was shot down, three others badly damaged.
One B-24A (prototype Liberator) intended for a secret photo mission is seldom reported; it was destroyed in the attack."

The serials for the EIGHT B-17Es and FOUR B-17Cs are given in the appendix of Leatrice Arakaki and John Kuborn's 7 Dec 1941: The USAF Story which is on line at: http://www.gl.iit.edu/wadc/history/7December1941/p004.html

NONE of the B-17s were "shot down" as ALL landed...in one form or another. The one shot up during landing at Hickam, burnt in two on the tarmac and is often seen in photos. Another viewed on its belly at Bellow Field had gone into the overrun where a ditch wiped out its landing gear. Both were scrapped. The B-24A was NOT a 'prototype' but among the first production run...and modified for use in the Ferry Service (to England, etc.).

USS ENTERPRISE
"USN F4F fighters and SBD scout bombers from Enterprise arrived during the attack. They too were unarmed having flown ahead of the returning task force that had just reinforced Midway Island. Ten were lost."

The eighteen SBDs each made a paired flight on various quadrants which ended at Barbers Point...all were armed...six were shot down, including one by ground fire.

There were NO F4Fs flying to Pearl Harbor...until AFTER a late afternoon mission attempt to return to the carrier was met by a directive to fly to Pearl Harbor [arriving twelve hours AFTER the attack and after dusk when four were shot down by ground fire].

Hope I can get a 'round tuit' to help the URL webmaster with corrections!
Cheers,
David

Aloha All,
Even IF you have read the above post with "spoiler answers"...the total number of "American aircraft airborne DURING the Pearl Harbor Attack" is still no where near complete!

How many more planes?

Have you given any thought that 2Lt Ken Taylor and 2Lt George Welch, as portrayed in the recent PEARL HARBOR movie, were NOT the only men who made a defense against the Japanese in that two hour battle over Oahu?

Have you taken the challenge or cared enough to check the spoiler?

May we remember Pearl Harbor better and keep the record straight...
May we remember Pearl Harbor as it really happened...

Mahalo nui loa,
David Aiken... ua mau ke e o ka aina e ka pono!

Aloha Colonel Rohr,
Tis good to have the opportunity to clear up the possible problems or even myths as they come to my attention.

CIVILIAN AVIATION
The training schools, etc involved that day were:
Gambo Flying Service
Andrews Flying Service
K-T Flying Service
Hua Lei Lei Flying Club

(1) K-T Flying Service had two J-3 Cubs, and a Waco, and an unidentified aircraft airborne.
(2) Andrews Flying Service had its Interstate Cadet airborne.
(3) Marguerite Gambo [later Ma Wood] owned several Aeronca Tandums [the words used on the Bill of Sale]. She rented one that was airborne [plane exists today in Hawaii]...She had a student up in another.
(4) Ma Gambo sold one Aeronca Tandum to the Hua LeLe Flying Club. The club plane was up with instructor and student [plane exists today in Texas].

Ah, the Kingfisher was from USS West Virginia, not USS Az. The plane taxied to Ford Island but did not fly on 7 Dec.

Yes, I have been to the crash sites on land...they have been swept clean. The only crash sites which have not been resolved are on the ocean floor. John Dains shot down a D3A off Kaaawa [note the triple 'a'] and its tail was recently viewed sticking out of the silt at some 200 foot down...too deep for free dives. An A6M was located off Barbers Point [north of the point] and because so many USN folk came up with the bends from free dives to sit in the cockpit, the USN used a grappling hook and 'dragged the wreckage out to sea'! The bridge to Ford Island is built across the crash site of a B5N torpedo plane. The 'reef runway' is built on top of a USS Enterprise SBD lost that day. Enough on crash sites. I am getting ill!

Cheers,
David

Aloha Colonel Rohr,
If you mean by "none Dec 7, 1941 crash sites"...the 7 Dec sites that are no longer there, yes. Or if you mean the crash sites of planes that are NOT 7 Dec, no -unless by accident while searching for 7 Dec sites.

Ah, the Myers OTW is cited on the board in another thread and was addressed in my initial post in this thread on Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:52 pm.
HTH,
David

Aloha Colonel Rohr,
Discussion is closed regarding parts and pieces in aircraft dumps, and any aircraft in the jungle. There are folk who make their living from knowledge of such. As they may be sources for me in my research, I can not betray their faith in me by making public their fragile thread of finances.

Now back to the trivia question...
Cheers,
David