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When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Mark Allen M wrote:
Joe Kasparoff's P-51C 43-25147, N51PR, Santa Maria, 1994 when he owned it. I attending this get together.


Great photo Mark. I was fortunate to see "The Believer" at a Planes of Fame airshow around the same time frame. While I like authenticity as much as anyone I gotta admit, bright red on the P-51C looked VERY nice!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:36 pm 
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p51 wrote:
Heck, I know plenty of people who are offended by violence in any form (the types who think violence never solved anything.

You can add me to your list. I'm not only offended by violence, but appalled, disgusted and an avid believer that violence, in and of itself, never solved anything. Violence is inexcusable. Wars don't end by violence, they usually end by a truce, treaty or capitulation. Just using violence to solve problems is a problem itself. It makes people fear you instead of solving the problem peacefully. But just so the pro-shoot first guys don't become too offended, ... yes! I have used violence a few times in my past with tragic results, and of which is the reason I'm lucky to get 3 to 4 hours of somewhat un-restless sleep a night. .... Violence is easily one of the most vile words I know.

"Through violence you may murder a murderer, but you can't murder murder. Through violence you may murder a liar, but you can't establish truth. Through violence you may murder a hater, but you can't murder hate. Darkness cannot put out darkness. Only light can do that." — Martin Luther King, Jr.

But I'm not naive enough to accept just one side of the debate. Like most things there's always a flip side to that coin. To use physical violence to overcome a situation? Unfortunately and tragically yes as violence is often inevitable and justifiable. Sometimes violence is necessary. "Love your enemies" is a quaint notion that we could not apply to Hitler or ISIL.

“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms”
― Robert A. Heinlein

So I can reluctantly accept both views pro and con, but that will never mean I will stop being offended by violence to the highest order. I can only wish that most practical folks share a common reality that violence, in and of itself, is immoral, unethical and unrighteous ... To use.

But that's just me ...

Meanwhile back to that Warbird Museum. Are atheists allowed entry? pop2

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:00 am 
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Mark Allen M wrote:
Meanwhile back to that Warbird Museum. Are atheists allowed entry? pop2

I sure hope so. It'd be a shame for the Mid America Flight Museum to ban certain fellow Americans into there museum just because of their personal convictions / feelings. Despite their views on, well, anything really. But again this is a private museum after all, right? And if anything the recent news has taught us, is that as a business owner (in a nut shell) are able to refuse service to someone on first amendment claims of artistic freedom.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-baker-who-denied-same-sex-couple-a-wedding-cake/

Which is the official ruling of that case unfortunately, but cmon! We know Jack Phillips (the baker) was making his stand on religious beliefs. Just like Kentucky county clerk, Kim Davis after defying a federal court order to issue licenses to gay couples.

The point I'm trying to make is, yes Scott and everyone at the MAFM are free to pursue any direction they want. To further any potential particular agenda they may or may not have. Be it a morally subjective religious based agenda or simply honoring veterans like most museums, I'm not entirely sure. I live in Connecticut. But I'd still love to get down there and visit all of those museums one day. I sure hope the goal was to try and create a completely unbiased group that welcomed every kind of American from every walk of life.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:47 am 
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Chris, that's not the ruling and is part of why the media continues to screw itself over.

The ruling is, and is made ABUNDANTLY CLEAR in the opinions (and why it was a 5-2 ruling with even the 2 dissenting judges still agreeing with most of the judgement) that the State of Colorado did not give the baker a fair hearing.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/1 ... 1_j4el.pdf

It's a long read in total, but it's worth it, especially how one of the Commissioners apparently stated that religion was the cause (not the victim) of the Holocaust and that the anti-religious statements were never addressed by any of the appeals courts despite being brought up each time by the baker's team. Their discrimination against his religious beliefs is specifically protected under the Constitution. Their failure to respect those protections is what caused this ruling, but it does not make a ruling on the larger issue, so nothing else has changed and there are other cases pending that will probably rule on where that line is.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:57 am 
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Just took a closer look at their website.

So their motto may be "For God & Country" and that's fine with me, but what stands out is their mission, which is fine(r).

- Honoring Veterans

- Mentoring Kids

- Providing Opportunity for Community Involvement

- Preserving Aviation History

Huge fan of all the above = huge fan of the Museum.

All the very best wishes for much success.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:52 pm 
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p51 wrote:
I'm not religious at all, but you simply can't ignore that religion and military history go hand in hand. No atheists in foxholes, if you will.


Nothing but atheists in foxholes, if they had faith they wouldn't be taking cover ;)


Putting aside everyone's beliefs or lack of for a moment:
They may run into issues with any Govt grants/donations etc owing to the Establishment Clause of the First...even of it's something as simple as basic infrastructure like putting in a new access road ferinstance... but apart from that I don't see any problems.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:56 pm 
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Mark Allen M wrote:
Meanwhile back to that Warbird Museum. Are atheists allowed entry? pop2


I'd confuse the heck out of them. I am both an atheist & an ordained member of the clergy :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:18 pm 
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ZRX61 wrote:


Putting aside everyone's beliefs or lack of for a moment:
They may run into issues with any Govt grants/donations etc owing to the Establishment Clause of the First...even of it's something as simple as basic infrastructure like putting in a new access road ferinstance... but apart from that I don't see any problems.



Actually, if this museum is registered as a charitable organization, it cannot be denied government funding that would be available to any other charitable organization. There is no limitation based on religious affiliation. The only limitation is that government funds may not be used for religious materials.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:48 pm 
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I haven't seen any mention of their B-25 with the same name, considering it is one of Scott's earlier planes, I imagine the slogan is just a way to associate with one of their flagship planes as well?... I think it's pretty cool.

And in regards to the "infomercials", they literally show a product being used to keep MAFM's planes looking beautiful. It's not like they're putting making videos about dog food that has nothing to do with planes... And if you don't want to watch those videos, there's an easy way to do that! Just don't click them!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:54 am 
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Dan K wrote:
Actually, if this museum is registered as a charitable organization, it cannot be denied government funding that would be available to any other charitable organization. There is no limitation based on religious affiliation. The only limitation is that government funds may not be used for religious materials.


Yup, they'd be fine so long as they file their 501c3 paperwork as a museum/charity. I don't think they'd be trying to game the taxpayers like Ken Ham & his boat of genocide celebration.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:20 am 
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Boy, folks are sure touchy!

I think some are reading a bit too much into something.
I see the motto "God and Country" as less a religious statement (let alone appeal or endorsement) and more of a nod to the feelings, expressions and mottos of WWII.

God and Country was a well known tern of the time.
I don know the religious beliefs of the museum's founders.
Frankly, I don't care. They are free to have their beliefs and I mine.

Yes, the slogan might be an endorsement on their part, but since it also is a common WWII term, I'd suspect they intended a double meaning...perhaps with a subtle (very subtle) bit evangelicalism.

Am I offended, concerned or bothered by that?
Of course not.

Life's too short to go around looking to be offered.
If the motto freaks you out, don't go.
Be a big boy and accept the fact people have differing beliefs and opinions.
See, problem solved.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:14 am 
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ZRX61 wrote:
Mark Allen M wrote:
Meanwhile back to that Warbird Museum. Are atheists allowed entry? pop2


I'd confuse the heck out of them. I am both an atheist & an ordained member of the clergy :)


A noted Rabbi once said that you don't have to believe in God to be Jewish, you just have to believe in being a Jew.

I have no problems with anyone's closely held beliefs until they become like Vegans or Apple users <G>

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Noha307 wrote:
I was curious what everyone's opinions of the Mid America Flight Museum were. They're a relatively new museum, so I don't I have a lot of history to go on, but from what I've seen so far, there's a couple of things of which I'm not a fan.

First, the "motto" of their museum is "For God & Country". I'm not here to start a discussion on the rightness or wrongness of religion – I have no problem with people believing whatever they want – but supporting or visiting the museum would make me feel uncomfortable. I think it's wrong for a museum to be involved in what I see as a form of evangelism.

Secondly, while I have to give them props for the frequency with which they put out excellent videos on their YouTube channel, they recently posted a three videos (1, 2, 3) that seemed to me to be essentially an infomercial for someone's cleaning product. Again, I have no problem with aviation museums thanking their sponsors – it's a necessary part of funding – but these extended demos came off as blatant product placement.

Does anyone else find fault with these things, or am I making a stink out of nothing?



And we can add another item to the list of why most warbird owners and operators don't take WIX seriously.

Scott is probably the nicest guy in the warbird business, and as far as I know it is a private museum with no 501c3, so if he wants to hold church services in his hangar he is welcome to do so. Be thankful he is spending his hard earned money on warbirds AND sharing them with anyone who stops by his hangars. Sheesh...


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:51 pm 
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Tim that's just from one dude and it's usually only one dude who has some sort of Warbird problem every now and then. The rest of us who have posted in this thread seem to feel it's much ado about nothing. I can also say with a bit of confidence that several Warbird owners frequent, and old posters still frequent, this forum. H*ll many of my PM's come from owners, restorers and pilots. They're here and they always have been here. How else are they going to find out who's talking sh*t about their airplane(s) :wink: ... seriously, many folks in the deep Warbird world (me not included) find value here on WIX in their own ways and we novices find value in them. They may not post much for various reasons of their own, but most aren't naive either. They know how internet forums work. They also know that 99% of us greatly appreciate all they do and wish them the very best.

This is one of the reasons I still can't seem to stick to my own personal banning (exile) from this kooky internet forum. lol

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Mark Allen M wrote:
Tim that's just from one dude and it's usually only one dude who has some sort of Warbird problem every now and then. The rest of us who have posted in this thread seem to feel it's much ado about nothing. I can also say with a bit of confidence that several Warbird owners frequent, and old posters still frequent, this forum. H*ll many of my PM's come from owners, restorers and pilots. They're here and they always have been here. How else are they going to find out who's talking sh*t about their airplane(s) :wink: ... seriously, many folks in the deep Warbird world (me not included) find value here on WIX in their own ways and we novices find value in them. They may not post much for various reasons of their own, but most aren't naive either. They know how internet forums work. They also know that 99% of us greatly appreciate all they do and wish them the very best.

This is one of the reasons I still can't seem to stick to my own personal banning (exile) from this kooky internet forum. lol


I didn't say they didn't read it. Most don't contribute and most don't have much good to say about it, which is unfortunate. I talk to warbird owners each and every day, and when WIX comes up, it is usually followed by a chuckle.. Just sayin....


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