A Visit to Ray Moore and Lucky 13

[TheBigBadGman]

I turned 31 on October 12 and, as a birthday gift, my wife and I made the three hour roadtrip from Aiken to Asheville to visit Ray and Lucky Thirteen. We had met in person only once before regarding the unfortunate Columbia B-25 and Curtiss-Wright Hangar, but this meeting was under much happier circumstances. Photobucket has been a pain to a lot of you guys as of late, which seems to be pushing everyone more toward Facebook. I don't really care for Facebook so I'm sharing these pics of Ray's shop to help spread the word for you other non-Facebook types.

Boeing B-17F-65-DL Lucky Thirteen [42-3455, 384BG] flew seven combat operations before she was lost over Reims on 6 September 1943.



Lucky Thirteen is on the right, Liberty Belle is on the left.





The cockpit section you see here is from the short-lived "Twelve O'Clock High" TV series.







This is what he was working on when we got there.

To be honest, I have no working knowledge in metal fabrication. I am a historian, and thus far, the most help I've given to the project is locating Ray photographs detailing the single-gun nose-mount used on late-model B-17Fs. That said, I do have a small carpentry shop, so I have volunteered to replicate some of Ray's pieces.



The photo above is the floor piece that sits immediately to the front of the waist entrance door. Usually an Elsan chemical toilet was placed here, though crews sometimes removed it because of its infamous discomfort.



The photo above is the floor piece that sits behind the tail wheel, just to the right of the tail gunner's hatch. We cannot find any clear reference on this piece so I have no way of knowing if it is the correct length. Considering that is came from an old nuclear testing site, it is a wonder I have any reference at all. If any of you have anything on this piece, please post its dimensions.

I'm also going to try and build some of the posture seats so common to early Boeing aircraft.

Hope this is of some interest to everybody.

-G. Blume
http://www.gblume.com

Last edited by TheBigBadGman on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[phil65]

Thanks for the info and photos.

I don't like F-book either...

Phil

[Stoney]

https://imgur.com/

A lot of people are using this now instead of FB or PB

[DH82EH]

Yes, thanks for the post.
I have admired Rays work here on WIX since I became aware of it.
What an enormous project. I can't even imagine keeping track of all that is required.
The phrase "How do you eat an elephant" comes to mind.

Amazing!

Oh yeah. "F" F-book

Andy

[Warbird Kid]

Very cool photos. Thanks. Can I put the photos up on Facebook so the other half of WIX can see?

FACEBOOK RULEZ!

[TheBigBadGman]

Can I put the photos up on Facebook so the other half of WIX can see?

Yeah, sure. Just be sure to credit me, or at least shamelessly plug my website. Should be some folks interested in my Timeline of Strategic Aviation and the records therein.
http://www.gblume.com/timeline-of-strategic-aviation/

I used my website as host rather than try and navigate through some third party.

I can't even imagine keeping track of all that is required.

No kidding. I'm a bit of a clean freak and my wife and I both suffer from mild OCD, but Ray is something else. We joked that he must be hellacious at putting puzzles together.


Oh, and for what it is worth, upon closer examination of that last floor piece, I have the correct length. So, no worries there.

-G. Blume
www.gblume.com

[FlyingFortB17]

I am a historian, and thus far, the most help I've given to the project is locating Ray photographs detailing the single-gun nose-mount used on late-model B-17Fs.

Were you able to help him on this? I'd be interested to know how you believe the structure was attached. I also have several photos that may be useful in detailing the installation of these field-modified gun mounts, though nothing showing conclusively how the structure was mounted to the roof of the nose compartment.

[TheBigBadGman]

Were you able to help him on this? I'd be interested to know how you believe the structure was attached.

Good timing. I just got an e-mail from Karl with drawings from the Cheyenne modification center - far better than any of the photos I provided. I'll see if I can upload a couple later today for you.

[TheBigBadGman]

Okay, here are some of Karl's production drawings. I've cleaned up and downsized what he sent me so everyone can see them. The originals are a bit too big to post unaltered.









and here is a picture I had of such a mount in the field:



-G. Blume
http://www.gblume.com

[TheBigBadGman]

Only mention is that Lucky Thirteen was lost on 6 September 1943 near Rheims, France

You're right. It is the 6th.

I'm sure you can imagine how I mixed up 6 and 9. My mind must have been in the gutter.



As for Amiens, I got that from the MIA Report, where the plane is reported to have crashed in that area by one of the survivors.

I went ahead and edited the main post just the same.

[FlyingFortB17]

Okay, here are some of Karl's production drawings. I've cleaned up and downsized what he sent me so everyone can see them. The originals are a bit too big to post unaltered.

Awesome...thanks for sharing!

[JohnB]

If the flight deck is the one from the TV series (a couple of years ago I watched late night reruns and the series was better than I recalled and expected it to be) is it also the one from the Colorado bar?

[Chris Brame]

If the flight deck is the one from the TV series (a couple of years ago I watched late night reruns and the series was better than I recalled and expected it to be) is it also the one from the Colorado bar?

Those are two different B-17s, but both were used in the series. The flight deck is from the fuselage of 44-83316 that was used for set dressing in the background of shots filmed at Chino; the one from the bar is 44-83387 which was used inside the studio for cockpit process shots.

[TheBigBadGman]

I know it's been a while but I thought everyone here might like to see my work. As posted before, Ray had asked about me doing some carpentry for him. He gave me two pieces, recovered from a wreck on a weapon's testing range: a lavatory floor and a smaller section of flooring that led to the tail gunner's position.

My father and I wanted to be as accurate as possible so we took absolutely no shortcuts on this. This meant taking a couple days to travel and get the correct marine-grade plywood as well as painfully searching for the correct screws and washers. I never realized how hard it was to find flat head screws anymore nor had I ever heard of a "Tinnerman" washer. But I found them. The plywood is Douglas Fir and the stringers are Spruce - Boeing seemingly didn't care for Pine, which is the only wood in abundance locally. Locating these materials, combined with a nasty winter, slowed things down a bit.

I digress.

We minutely measured everything and cross-checked our work with blueprints purchased online. The lavatory floor went pretty easily, though the gaps in the stringers perplexed us. I found a few wartime pictures where these gaps were visible so we just copied them exact - maybe their purpose will be revealed to me in time. The tail floor piece was more difficult. The original stringers were made using three layers of ply warped to a certain angle. We had to steam these and mold them into place before attaching the floors themselves. These are all held together with a healthy combination of wood glue, Tinnerman washers, and tiny black finish nails (matched to the originals).

I haven't given these a finish because Ray has asked to put that off for a while. I do know that the tail floor piece is to be covered with rubber matting, as per the manual. The lavatory floor is to be left alone though, according to the manual, the area around it is to have a coat of asphalt varnish - this is something I have never seen a restoration replicate. We built four of everything: three for Ray and one for us to use as a pattern in case another project calls.

Ray has asked about us building interior doors, crew tables, and ammunition boxes for Lucky Thirteen and Liberty Belle and, if all goes well, I look forward to such projects. I had tried to gather some equipment for him but have found little success as of yet (I had hoped to find a chemical toilet to put on the lavatory floor; oh well). We hope to deliver these finished pieces soon and we can go over all of this in more detail. (Door handles and hinges will certainly be a must.)

Cheers!

-G
http://www.gblume.com

[Fouga23]

Nice work!