Warbird Information Exchange

Drone racing could draw a lot of interest from a new crowd. They'd have to figure out what works and what's allowed. I would like to see the Unlimited broken into two categories; Unlimited and Unlimited Classic. IN other words update for the twenty first century. Propellor driven but no other restrictions. Yes, at least one propellor driven with other types of engines allowed. Turbine, ram jet, whatever.
The new turbo prop industry is stuck in the 80's. Piagigio's are 1970's and King Airs and Mu-2s , etc. are 50 year old designs. Need to changed something to allow more "dark horse" and modest budget entries to enter the races and win the Gold. TO me, it's not that exciting to see the elite wealthy and their kids run around the pylons in 75 year old airplanes with little or no new technology and innovation. The COrporate spnosors will improve when the innovation and "state of the art" comes back to Reno.

The Drone Racing League is sorta like the Red Bull Racing in miniature. They had their first $1million purse race in Dubai last year, but that kind of sponsor interest is not getting a strong foothold here in the states. As you noted something to get the turboprop technology excited to innovate would be a plus to the technology toward modernization. That is happening with electrics in Formula E formula car racing. Tho I catch it once in awhile on Velocity Channel at 5 am on Sundays, Formula E is purported to start receiving attention soon from Fox Sports.
http://www.fiaformulae.com

For us old geezers loving big H.P. ancient technology and its invigorating sounds, sights and aromas, I like the idea of Unlimited and Classic Unlimited. My Mad Max moment would be a OV-10 Bronco with twin Griffon's in lieu of the desire for twin Napier Sabre's. Of course a more modern turboprop combination for the Bronco could be pretty exciting but turbos don't grab me like the recips do!

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A number of great sounding ideas here for Racing. The issue, though, is whether paying audiences would turn up for non-warbird based racing. No racing will work on a large scale without large crowds of paying spectators. When various organizations were trying to put together a racing series the crowds away from Reno were pretty dismal. Races in Denver, Dallas, Kansas City,Hamilton AFB, Miami, and even Phoenix never came close to paying for themselves even with the top Unlimiteds turning up (and there were a lot more top Unlimiteds back then). Reno itself has always been iffy without a major military demonstration team appearing.

It's extremely difficult and expensive to hold an Airplane Race, especially with insurance requirements after Leeward. None of the new ideas mentioned here will have the sound and charisma of the Warbirds. If even Warbird racing struggles, other forms of racing seem difficult to contemplate. Airplanes are expensive -- who's gonna contemplate massive spending on new technologies if even the charismatic old technologies struggle so to put butts in the seats?

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Neal Nurmi

---Wingman Photo---

While I like the Unlimited class, I believe a Warbird Stock and Warbird Modified class would be better. Add to that an actual Unlimited class where there is a more innovative "anything goes" attitude. Then again, Sport class is already on that playing field of pushing the technical limits.

My own age regardless, the truth of the matter is whatever is advertised correctly will be the draw. Things like Sthil's entry in Sport class are much sexier to the younger crowd than any Warbird. It's said that in business, 15% of your efforts should go into what you do, and 85% of the effort goes into marketing. I never believed that until I focused my business that way and it paid off well. Now I know why there are marketing firms....so people can do their specialty while somebody else trudges through marketing. The future is in the 30-40 year old age bracket out there. Hook them, and you have a base for the next 25 years.....then you work on increasing numbers.

They say if you want a revolution, you must "Agitate, Educate, Organize". Air racing needs to advertise to get people excited, teach them what is exciting and be organized enough to profit off of it all.

Yesterday I received my copy of Philip Handleman's 1996 book "Speedsters" from Amazon - it was one of my favourite library books growing up - and it turns out Phoenix, as mentioned by Neal above, tried a Museum class as well as the normal Unlimiteds:


*I think that's debateable as the Sea Fury photo'd adjacent, flown to victory in the Stock Gold by Nelson Ezell, appears to have an American engine!

But, as Neal also pointed out, there were more top/radical unlimiteds back then so perhaps a modern/revamped Museum Class would be pretty big and the field for the true Unlimiteds would be less than half a dozen machines.

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Zac in NZ
#avgeek, modelbuilder, photographer, writer. Callsign: "HANDBAG".
https://linktr.ee/zacyates

"It's his plane, he spent the money to restore it, he can do with it what he wants. I will never understand what's hard to comprehend about this." - kalamazookid, 20/08/2013
"The more time you spend around warbirds the sooner you learn nothing, is simple." - JohnB, 24/02/22

Just so long as they stay away from the "Super Gold" shootout they tried in Reno one year...

Interesting that folks are suggesting a "stock" class amongst the Unlimiteds. What did you folks think was flying in the medallion and bronze classes other than stock warbirds? Whatever happened a couple years ago (I'm talking after 2011), they succeeded in chasing away half the field. I doubt it had to do with racing modifications, as most of the missing aircraft were stock, or close to it.

The other reality is air racing will not survive without a strong Unlimited class. Any crowd you gain with the evolution of Sport class or F1/Biplane, will only partially replace the audience you lose without the warbirds hammering around. Sport is no more competitive at the front of the field than the Unlimiteds, and they lack the fascination of the big thumpers. It's all well and good to say I'm just being an @ss about not showing up without the warbirds, but for Reno to thrive, they need both groups.

With the possible exception of the minimum weight, their are no rules to change in the Unlimited class which would encourage new designs. They're still flying warbirds because as yet, no one has ever made a faster piston powered anything. There are no exotic modern engines with the ability to drag a 4,500lb airframe around at 500 mph. The closest thing we've seen are the Lycons in Sport class, but they're little more than good ole poppet valves with big turbos. Don't think there's much newness there.

NASCAR and F1 have both tried to replace their aging "traditional" audiences by making rule changes to appeal to a younger crowd. It's not working. Unlimited racing will survive and thrive as long as their are testosterone junkies and excess money. Last I heard, both are alive and well. As I tell all my friends, when I win the Powerball, I'll be knocking on Mr. Lewis door. "Sell me your race planes!"

When I went to Reno last year; like most, I really only wanted to see the Unlimited run.
But after I walked through the Formula one hanger, I became a big fan…

I would love to see the likes of Pond Racer, Tsunami or similar run at Reno.

Three pages of air racing….

Phil

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A man's got to know his limitations.

I disagree. Can you provide me the list of other venues outside of Reno that have actual Unlimited Class air racing....because IF 1 has for the last 3 years had an actual living, breathing and growing World Cup series under the Air Race 1 banner. The planes get shipped to other countries, most of which have never seen and will never get to an Unlimited race. Yet everywhere they go they are drawing HUGE crowds. I'm 56 and had to look past my own interests to realize air racing is about ALL the classes. I've got many hundreds if not thousands of hours over the last 4 years turning wrenches on an Unlimited and enjoy the class. I have grown to think that the other classes will be the saving grace that allows Warbirds to motor around the pylons years from now....

I'm glad to hear you discovered what I mean about how great IF 1 actually is. If you stand to close to an Unlimited, you'll get to buy a shirt. You stand to close to an IF 1 and you won't make it back to the hotel that night, you'll be greasy, exhausted and screaming your heart out for the team that just suckered you in.....


....One of my best photos a couple of years ago was a third of the IF 1 pilots (and some crew) all standing at the barriers watching the Unlimiteds.

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I disagree. Can you provide me the list of other venues outside of Reno that have actual Unlimited Class air racing....because IF 1 has for the last 3 years had an actual living, breathing and growing World Cup series under the Air Race 1 banner. The planes get shipped to other countries, most of which have never seen and will never get to an Unlimited race. Yet everywhere they go they are drawing HUGE crowds. I'm 56 and had to look past my own interests to realize air racing is about ALL the classes. I've got many hundreds if not thousands of hours over the last 4 years turning wrenches on an Unlimited and enjoy the class. I have grown to think that the other classes will be the saving grace that allows Warbirds to motor around the pylons years from now....[/quote]
Sorry, I'm just reporting from Realville. I hope IF1 is successful in their international events. That's great.

Every year at Reno, I make a point of being there before 8:00am on Sunday. I want to see everything on championship day. You know what I see every year, without fail? In the morning, the stands and box seats are empty. The crowd starts trickling in when the warbirds fly. Maybe people would travel to Indy for an F1 race. I seriously doubt you could get anything resembling a crowd to come to Reno without warbirds flying the sticks. Look at the reaction to TFL vs when they ran a Red Bull race out there. Folks are all over talking about how great it was to see the TFL planes racing, even if they were just flying demo laps. There is a ton of evidence for what I'm saying, just look around you. Reno isn't just about warbirds. Not by a long shot, but without them, you won't have a viable show.

Sorry Randolph but I gotta go with Ignomini too. I think it's awesome that IF1 Airrace1 whatever you want to call it is doing well, but that doesn't mean anything. Why has F1 been thriving and growing? Anyone on this board could in reality go buy a F1 plane for the price of a car and race it. How about a cheap warbird, say a Yak? That's 10+ cars... Airrace1 might be drawing what seems to be large crowds, but what Ignomini said is true, most of that crowd doesn't know any better. They won't ever see an Unlimited, so F1 is awesome to them. Tell me how many people go to the Airrace1 races outside of a 100mi radius of the venue. Now tell me how many people go to Reno, 100mi outside the radius of Stead..... Big difference. The difference is Unlimiteds, Sports, Jets...

From 1980 or so into the 1990s IF1 tried mightily to get a series going. They provided a true turnkey operation -- course layout and surveying, a complete timing and pylon judging package, their own officials, etc etc. They raced in places as diverse as Richland Wa, Vancouver, Albuquerque, Minot N D, Stockton Ca, Kalamazoo Mi, various Oregon locations -- basically anyplace they could get to have them. I was affiliated with IF1 for much of that time, and attended and photographed many of these events. (I love IF1 by the way -- some of the best racing anywhere and some of the greatest people too). All in all it was a dismal failure despite some very bright and highly motivated people trying really hard. Lots of money and time spent and almost no financial return at all. Eventually it all just kind of petered out -- folks just got tired of all that effort and time with no signs that anybody outside the organization much cared or even noticed.

Airplane racing on any level is just a hard thing to sell. This ain't the 1930s any more.

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Neal Nurmi

---Wingman Photo---

In the 1930's there were different factors in play. 1) The aircraft represented cutting edge technology and some of the racers were faster than the military's fighters, 2) The aircraft wee faster than anything anyone from a small town had ever seen. Cars and trucks went about 50 mph. Nowadays there are cars and motorcycles that can go 200 mph and bass boats that can go 80 mph. 3) There was very little competition for the townspeoples' attention. What, a square dance at the USO or church on Sundays? Air racing was like bringing a NASA launch to your hometown.

Serious thread, but one that has devolved into talking about something else than what it began as. I have a couple points, and I hope that they are pertinent to the discussion.

The RB-51 is an aircraft that excites and bewitches both all spectators who remember and all people who wished they did. I just missed seeing her, first going to Chino in August of 1979 as a boy. I sure remember N924G and her tremendous propeller then, and learned of the whole story soon after the RB-51 was gone. Denver Kisssinger prints and posters and other collectibles were a passion of mine, and I certainly bought a few things, even a Griffon or two to think about it...but today the landscape is a bit different. Parts are really expensive.

The effort to build an RB-51 is a massive one, and on par with that of a P-51. That similarity creates problems for cost, as well as the differences between a single seat correct “record attempt” RB-51 or an “Airshows standard” RB-51 are two different animals in some ways. You could build “a” plane....but it is a limited use tool, and what do you do with it besides fly it yourself. If you build it to be a racer, it’s not competitive against a Strega platform....however those are almost all gone. Odd thing is there aren’t many unlimited racers anymore. Planes powered by lowly Continentals and Lycomings are faster than all but the top two unlimited just about....sad.

Now before anyone says that I am a pessimist about it, that’s not true. I would enjoy being part of the challenge, and have some parts collected because I had “hoped to” do just that. While it has no history, (and isn’t a true warbird), the RB-51 is an amazing story of racing, young people and a can do spirit I wasn’t old enough to see. To try and create that magic again is why we all volunteer and spend on this stuff. As far as I would be concerned as an owner however, I wouldn’t risk the plane in “fangs out”racing. I think a true (like vintage cars) vintage racing circuit would generate more money, safer displays and more fun, while conserving the “resource”. To see the reborn and scratchbuilt RB-51, Tsunami, Jeannie, Conquest 1, Miss Merced, a backdated N777L, (the old Bear) with Strega, Superbird (Planes of Fame F2G, Precious, Dago and (black paint) Miss Foxy Lady in a once every two year “circuit” would be thrilling to me. Visit the LeMans Classic in France in 2018 to see what I mean. It’s awesome.

A TF-51 project may cost as much as 35 percent more, perhaps 50; but would be a positive cash experience (or close to it) if you completed it right. And you could sell it on without any trouble. Single seaters are just getting tougher to sell. And the RB-51 requires a crew, it’s not a single pilot owner sportplane. It’s beautiful and evocative, and will require the Musala’s to try it, John has the knowledge and personal history with the plane, and the parts. But for a group on the outside it’s tough to consider.

As for racing, all of those changes have already happened. Most of the big unlimited racers are gone, and few will return because there is no money in it. It’s not an airshow. They want to race. Take away the prize money, as has happened, and this is what you have. Sport racers were faster than ALL the “stock” unlimited, and will continue to be faster. It’s brilliant to see Strega and Voodoo, but let’s face it. The Sport class is just about faster than everything else. Do I want to watch a bunch of stock warbirds fly a course like that? No. Because I saw it happen in some of the years when it counted. Seeing the real racers was an experience. But the money isn’t there, and until it comes back that’s the real problem.

To build a competitive racing Mustang may cost (from scratch today) $2.5M....if you decided to try it and that’s pretty conservative. When you are done with it you can sell it for $1.5M if I’m being generous. And you went to Reno for three years with it and spent $300,000 a year on training and engines and ....and why are we doing this again? The guy that buys your scratchbuilt racer for $1.2 will deconstruct the plane to start a TF-51 project or the next “combat original” P-51D for Oshkosh. If the Reno purse was changed to $500,000 to win unlimited Gold, and $250,000 for second and announced for the 2021 race.... just wait and see how many racers might show up. Now that would be something.

However at the end of the day, would one rather build a (more fiscally responsible, and two seat equal cost almost P-51B?..well then that’s your answer.

As for the other racing, drones, Lycomings and iPhone planes...you can have it.