Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:53 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:51 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:43 pm
Posts: 1168
Location: Marietta, GA
ignomini wrote:
CAPFlyer touched on this point, but I wanted to ask if a plane like the BUFF, with it's control system, would even be capable of doing a roll? Once the aircraft gets to 90 degrees it seems like game over to me.


If you're managing the g force to 1 g or so and are in coordinated flight, there shouldn't be a problem. In coordinated 1g flight, the airplane doesn't know which way is up from an aerodynamic point of view.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 485
Have seen lots of B-1 flybys and airshow performances, have never seen one rolled and would be dismayed and surprised to see it done at low altitude, but I have no doubt they are capable of it.

As alluded to, "Bud" Holland was considered a B-52 virtuoso and routinely did things in the big aircraft that no one else could or would, including flying at angles of attacks so steep that fuel streamed out of the wing tank vents - And this at airshows. He once, among many other reckless stunts which culminated in the fatal crash at Fairchild, buzzed his daughters softball team, entered a 70 degree bank and nearly fell out of the sky. It appears he had just enough altitude to recover, that time.

I heard he was known to be determined to roll the big bird, haven't seen where he actually had.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:38 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:27 am
Posts: 5228
Location: Eastern Washington
For what it's worth during my time at Dyess, I never heard of it being rolled.
Maybe hot shots did it away from base (and being on the CC's staff I wouldn't have heard of it...unless it went wrong), but probably not at low level..remember for a B-1 low level is low.

_________________
Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:45 pm 
Offline
Warbird Pilot
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 7:16 am
Posts: 727
Location: USA
Quote:
A loop is a much more G heavy maneuver. In the T-6 on the pull entry to a loop you are averaging 3.5 to 4Gs on the initial pull into the loop and 4 to 4.5Gs on the exit.


Wow that's hard on the equipment! I can competently and consistently loop T-6s with 3 G's pull for entry and exit. I've even done it with less G's and a higher entry speed. Why would the exit be a higher G load than the entry? Why would pull that hard on an 70+ year old airframe?

_________________
Live to fly, Fly to live.....


Last edited by Chuck Gardner on Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:55 pm
Posts: 54
Location: Ohio
Is a Ford Trimotor big enough?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6f0tvqtAxQ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:26 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:52 pm
Posts: 3399
Location: Wichita Falls, Texas, USA
B-1B Aileron Rolls -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNzStrhjN5k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6ZPFvrJBl4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTF3sGFQN5Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pALoamurkiA

Cockpit view (at 1:20, but good video overall) -
https://youtu.be/Gaj2PvO4aHU


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:36 pm
Posts: 715
Xray wrote:
As alluded to, "Bud" Holland was considered a B-52 virtuoso and routinely did things in the big aircraft that no one else could or would, including flying at angles of attacks so steep that fuel streamed out of the wing tank vents - And this at airshows. He once, among many other reckless stunts which culminated in the fatal crash at Fairchild, buzzed his daughters softball team, entered a 70 degree bank and nearly fell out of the sky. It appears he had just enough altitude to recover, that time.
I heard he was known to be determined to roll the big bird, haven't seen where he actually had.

An acquaintance of mine was offered to fly as Bud's Co-pilot that day on the ill-fated Fairchild B-52 crash, but he refused. He told me that nobody in the squadron would fly with him because they considered him dangerous. That is the only reason that senior leadership (O-5's and higher) were the crewmembers, and not company or field grade officers.

Interesting videos showing some of Bud's antics in the B-52:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJl7b9bQH0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQa4PpIkOZU


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:23 am
Posts: 698
From the excellent and extensive Wikipedia article on that crash:

"Mark McGeehan, the USAF squadron commander, refused to allow any of his squadron members to fly with Holland unless he (McGeehan) was also on the aircraft."

McGeehan was indeed in the right seat that day. I believe he had initiated the ejection process by the time the airplane went in.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:04 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 1102
Location: West Valley, Silicon Valley
short version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pviuk_WuwmM

_________________
remember the Oogahonk!
old school enthusiast of Civiltary Warbirds and Air Racers


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:19 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:14 pm
Posts: 1667
Location: Oslo, NORWAY
From an interview with Paul Tibbetts on the B-47 and Tex Johnson.

http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/profiles/a60/
Quote:
Regarding training, General Tibbets said, "The ground school at Wichita was run by Boeing technical representatives called, tech-reps. They gave me a comprehensive training and really the first formal introduction I had ever had to a new airplane. Up to this time, someone always said that this is the airplane and to get in and fly it. The schooling went on for 30 days, a little longer than necessary because we didn't have a B-47 available at the time. When it came time for me to check out in the B-47, I was lucky to have one of the best pilots in the business: A.M. "Tex" Johnson, a big man who always wore cowboy boots and, when not flying, a big Stetson hat. I knew what the B-47 was supposed to do. Tex Johnson showed me what it COULD do. He flew far enough away from Wichita that we would be out of sight of the Boeing people, who might not have approved of the demonstration that was in store for me. We did slow rolls, loops, Immelmanns - just about everything you would say was impossible in a big airplane with six engines."


T J

_________________
Make my day, punk!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 485
OD/NG wrote:
Xray wrote:
As alluded to, "Bud" Holland was considered a B-52 virtuoso and routinely did things in the big aircraft that no one else could or would, including flying at angles of attacks so steep that fuel streamed out of the wing tank vents - And this at airshows. He once, among many other reckless stunts which culminated in the fatal crash at Fairchild, buzzed his daughters softball team, entered a 70 degree bank and nearly fell out of the sky. It appears he had just enough altitude to recover, that time.
I heard he was known to be determined to roll the big bird, haven't seen where he actually had.

An acquaintance of mine was offered to fly as Bud's Co-pilot that day on the ill-fated Fairchild B-52 crash, but he refused. He told me that nobody in the squadron would fly with him because they considered him dangerous. That is the only reason that senior leadership (O-5's and higher) were the crewmembers, and not company or field grade officers.

Interesting videos showing some of Bud's antics in the B-52:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJl7b9bQH0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQa4PpIkOZU


There used to be a real good writeup concerning Holland, link I have to it is dead.
Basically all of the info in the wiki writeup but alot more comprehensive.

The copilot on the Yakima range photo mission stated that on the last pass he calculated the B-52 was going to impact and repeatedly screamed for him to pull up. He looked over and Holland had a glossy, goofy look on his face and seemed froze. He thought he had target fixation and pulled the yoke himself, and Holland chewed him out and called him a big kittie - He calculated they cleared the ridge by less than 20 ft, and the photographers wisely scrambled away for their lives.

When they got to the ground he stormed into squadron commander McGeehan's office and said look, this guy is nuts and I am not flying with him any more. I'll gladly give my life for this country but I'll be damned if I give it flying with some maniac - I'd prefer a court marshal.
McGeehan told him don't worry, it won't come to that - From that day until the crash he sat in the right seat whenever Holland was flying, hoping his looming retirement would commence before a crash.

Years back on some obscure forum there was a post discussing the crash and Buds daughter was posting.
She stated that the reason he made such a sharp turn [after the waveoff] was because there was a nuclear storage area which aircraft are forbidden to fly over, and he had no choice but to turn sharp to avoid it.
I didn't feel qualified to offer an opinion on that then and don't now, but if I had to, I'd say BS.
[McGeehan's son also posted in that thread, he was easy on the girl but wouldn't accept that Bud had no choice but to enter a fatal turn, stall the jet and crash to avoid a nuclear storage area].


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:55 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:52 pm
Posts: 3399
Location: Wichita Falls, Texas, USA
Aeronut wrote:
Both the Vulcan and Victor were capable of 'over the shoulder' bombing, pulling up from low level into a half loop, releasing the bomb on the way up and rolling off the top.

In the 80's I was at a Battle of Britain air show watching a Vulcan display with a USAF pilot stood alongside me. He was amazed that such a large aircraft could be thrown about like that, I was more surprised at his reaction than I was impressed by the Vulcan having seen it all before.


Forgot about toss bombing. The B-47 did it as well -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqIJL8lx00o


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:36 pm
Posts: 715
Xray wrote:
OD/NG wrote:
Xray wrote:
As alluded to, "Bud" Holland was considered a B-52 virtuoso and routinely did things in the big aircraft that no one else could or would, including flying at angles of attacks so steep that fuel streamed out of the wing tank vents - And this at airshows. He once, among many other reckless stunts which culminated in the fatal crash at Fairchild, buzzed his daughters softball team, entered a 70 degree bank and nearly fell out of the sky. It appears he had just enough altitude to recover, that time.
I heard he was known to be determined to roll the big bird, haven't seen where he actually had.

An acquaintance of mine was offered to fly as Bud's Co-pilot that day on the ill-fated Fairchild B-52 crash, but he refused. He told me that nobody in the squadron would fly with him because they considered him dangerous. That is the only reason that senior leadership (O-5's and higher) were the crewmembers, and not company or field grade officers.

Interesting videos showing some of Bud's antics in the B-52:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJl7b9bQH0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQa4PpIkOZU


There used to be a real good writeup concerning Holland, link I have to it is dead.
Basically all of the info in the wiki writeup but alot more comprehensive.

The copilot on the Yakima range photo mission stated that on the last pass he calculated the B-52 was going to impact and repeatedly screamed for him to pull up. He looked over and Holland had a glossy, goofy look on his face and seemed froze. He thought he had target fixation and pulled the yoke himself, and Holland chewed him out and called him a big kittie - He calculated they cleared the ridge by less than 20 ft, and the photographers wisely scrambled away for their lives.

When they got to the ground he stormed into squadron commander McGeehan's office and said look, this guy is nuts and I am not flying with him any more. I'll gladly give my life for this country but I'll be damned if I give it flying with some maniac - I'd prefer a court marshal.
McGeehan told him don't worry, it won't come to that - From that day until the crash he sat in the right seat whenever Holland was flying, hoping his looming retirement would commence before a crash.

Years back on some obscure forum there was a post discussing the crash and Buds daughter was posting.
She stated that the reason he made such a sharp turn [after the waveoff] was because there was a nuclear storage area which aircraft are forbidden to fly over, and he had no choice but to turn sharp to avoid it.
I didn't feel qualified to offer an opinion on that then and don't now, but if I had to, I'd say BS.
[McGeehan's son also posted in that thread, he was easy on the girl but wouldn't accept that Bud had no choice but to enter a fatal turn, stall the jet and crash to avoid a nuclear storage area].

That may be true, I don't know. The Air Force does stipulate restrictions of flyovers over sensitive areas, including nuke storage facilities. Even if it were true, he should have abandoned the turn, rolled wings level to get his lift vector perpendicular to the ground and accepted flying over the sensitive area. Holland was teflon. Even if it were true, why would he think he would get in trouble this time versus all of the previous things he did wrong in the past? He even had half the senior leadership on board his aircraft as witnesses. Surely, if he got in trouble they would have recognized that overflying the nukes was the only option for a safe outcome. I'm sure they would buffer him from getting into trouble if that were the case and the crash didn't happen.

Let's assume that restriction of overflight of a nuke storage facility is true. There is not a leader in the Air Force that would advocate not flying over it and putting a national resource (B-52) and pilots' lives at stake. There is precedence for how the military would react for a prohibited overflight of a sensitive area:

1) Military as well as civilian aircraft have inadvertently flown over the prohibited area (P-56) of the White House without authorization by accident. Do they get in trouble? Yes. Do they go to jail? No, most don't if it is an accident and not intentional.

2) Both Military and civilian planes have over flown the Restricted areas in and around Area 51/Groom Lake either without authorization or by accident. Same thing. Yes, they get in trouble, but usually their careers (military and civilian) aren't in jeopardy provided it was an honest mistake and not intentional.

Just my opinion, but I don't believe for one second that was even a thought in Holland's mind about not overflying the Nuke storage area. Why would he "all of a sudden" have a conscious and not break a rule when he had been doing it his whole career? Especially, when his life depended on it?

It doesn't pass common sense in my opinion. But, we can "what if" and play armchair quarterback all day. The bottom line is that we will never know, and I could be entirely wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:17 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:31 pm
Posts: 1650
A roll, done smoothly and in a barrelly fashion, is easy on an airframe and not very stressful. Not much extra positive G is involved, and no negative -- you just reduce to .25 or so while inverted.

Just don't screw it up.

But a loop is entirely different. There is no way to avoid a strong G load whie going in, or coming out.

During 777 training, in the Sim, we get :30 mn or so on Day One to play with it and goof around -- before we get down to business. During my session I flew underneath the LG bridge in YVR, pulled up then rolled over the anchored ships. Not that big a deal, although fun.

Airbus normal flight control laws don't permit it, but Boeing allows the pilot more latitude.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:25 am
Posts: 485
Xray wrote:
As alluded to, "Bud" Holland was considered a B-52 virtuoso and routinely did things in the big aircraft that no one else could or would, including flying at angles of attacks so steep that fuel streamed out of the wing tank vents - And this at airshows. He once, among many other reckless stunts which culminated in the fatal crash at Fairchild, buzzed his daughters softball team, entered a 70 degree bank and nearly fell out of the sky. It appears he had just enough altitude to recover, that time.
I heard he was known to be determined to roll the big bird, haven't seen where he actually had.

An acquaintance of mine was offered to fly as Bud's Co-pilot that day on the ill-fated Fairchild B-52 crash, but he refused. He told me that nobody in the squadron would fly with him because they considered him dangerous. That is the only reason that senior leadership (O-5's and higher) were the crewmembers, and not company or field grade officers.

Interesting videos showing some of Bud's antics in the B-52:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJl7b9bQH0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQa4PpIkOZU[/quote]

There used to be a real good writeup concerning Holland, link I have to it is dead.
Basically all of the info in the wiki writeup but alot more comprehensive.

The copilot on the Yakima range photo mission stated that on the last pass he calculated the B-52 was going to impact and repeatedly screamed for him to pull up. He looked over and Holland had a glossy, goofy look on his face and seemed froze. He thought he had target fixation and pulled the yoke himself, and Holland chewed him out and called him a big kittie - He calculated they cleared the ridge by less than 20 ft, and the photographers wisely scrambled away for their lives.

When they got to the ground he stormed into squadron commander McGeehan's office and said look, this guy is nuts and I am not flying with him any more. I'll gladly give my life for this country but I'll be damned if I give it flying with some maniac - I'd prefer a court marshal.
McGeehan told him don't worry, it won't come to that - From that day until the crash he sat in the right seat whenever Holland was flying, hoping his looming retirement would commence before a crash.

Years back on some obscure forum there was a post discussing the crash and Buds daughter was posting.
She stated that the reason he made such a sharp turn [after the waveoff] was because there was a nuclear storage area which aircraft are forbidden to fly over, and he had no choice but to turn sharp to avoid it.
I didn't feel qualified to offer an opinion on that then and don't now, but if I had to, I'd say BS.
[McGeehan's son also posted in that thread, he was easy on the girl but wouldn't accept that Bud had no choice but to enter a fatal turn, stall the jet and crash to avoid a nuclear storage area].[/quote]

OD/NG wrote:
That may be true, I don't know. The Air Force does stipulate restrictions of flyovers over sensitive areas, including nuke storage facilities. Even if it were true, he should have abandoned the turn, rolled wings level to get his lift vector perpendicular to the ground and accepted flying over the sensitive area. Holland was teflon. Even if it were true, why would he think he would get in trouble this time versus all of the previous things he did wrong in the past? He even had half the senior leadership on board his aircraft as witnesses. Surely, if he got in trouble they would have recognized that overflying the nukes was the only option for a safe outcome. I'm sure they would buffer him from getting into trouble if that were the case and the crash didn't happen.

Let's assume that restriction of overflight of a nuke storage facility is true. There is not a leader in the Air Force that would advocate not flying over it and putting a national resource (B-52) and pilots' lives at stake. There is precedence for how the military would react for a prohibited overflight of a sensitive area:

1) Military as well as civilian aircraft have inadvertently flown over the prohibited area (P-56) of the White House without authorization by accident. Do they get in trouble? Yes. Do they go to jail? No, most don't if it is an accident and not intentional.

2) Both Military and civilian planes have over flown the Restricted areas in and around Area 51/Groom Lake either without authorization or by accident. Same thing. Yes, they get in trouble, but usually their careers (military and civilian) aren't in jeopardy provided it was an honest mistake and not intentional.

Just my opinion, but I don't believe for one second that was even a thought in Holland's mind about not overflying the Nuke storage area. Why would he "all of a sudden" have a conscious and not break a rule when he had been doing it his whole career? Especially, when his life depended on it?

It doesn't pass common sense in my opinion. But, we can "what if" and play armchair quarterback all day. The bottom line is that we will never know, and I could be entirely wrong.


I agree, scenario doesn't pass muster.
From what I recall, he was coming in on a landing approach and was waved off for a KC-135 on or in the vicinity of the runway. Surely he could have aborted the approach in a safe and routine fashion without either overflying a restricted area or pulling an aggressive, dangerous maneuver - And true, if he did overfly the restricted area, he was obviously not the guy to be worried about reprimands.

He was to retire in a scant 30 days, he saw his glory days of hot dogging in a heavy bomber coming to a close and very likely wanted to give himself and all who saw him fly something to remember.

He does have his defenders and I think its a desperate attempt by them to throw a little spit shine on his soiled name.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 80 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group