Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:51 pm
ignomini wrote:CAPFlyer touched on this point, but I wanted to ask if a plane like the BUFF, with it's control system, would even be capable of doing a roll? Once the aircraft gets to 90 degrees it seems like game over to me.
Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:29 pm
Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:38 pm
Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:45 pm
A loop is a much more G heavy maneuver. In the T-6 on the pull entry to a loop you are averaging 3.5 to 4Gs on the initial pull into the loop and 4 to 4.5Gs on the exit.
Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:51 pm
Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:26 pm
Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:35 pm
Xray wrote:As alluded to, "Bud" Holland was considered a B-52 virtuoso and routinely did things in the big aircraft that no one else could or would, including flying at angles of attacks so steep that fuel streamed out of the wing tank vents - And this at airshows. He once, among many other reckless stunts which culminated in the fatal crash at Fairchild, buzzed his daughters softball team, entered a 70 degree bank and nearly fell out of the sky. It appears he had just enough altitude to recover, that time.
I heard he was known to be determined to roll the big bird, haven't seen where he actually had.
Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:50 pm
Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:04 pm
Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:19 pm
Regarding training, General Tibbets said, "The ground school at Wichita was run by Boeing technical representatives called, tech-reps. They gave me a comprehensive training and really the first formal introduction I had ever had to a new airplane. Up to this time, someone always said that this is the airplane and to get in and fly it. The schooling went on for 30 days, a little longer than necessary because we didn't have a B-47 available at the time. When it came time for me to check out in the B-47, I was lucky to have one of the best pilots in the business: A.M. "Tex" Johnson, a big man who always wore cowboy boots and, when not flying, a big Stetson hat. I knew what the B-47 was supposed to do. Tex Johnson showed me what it COULD do. He flew far enough away from Wichita that we would be out of sight of the Boeing people, who might not have approved of the demonstration that was in store for me. We did slow rolls, loops, Immelmanns - just about everything you would say was impossible in a big airplane with six engines."
Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:22 pm
OD/NG wrote:Xray wrote:As alluded to, "Bud" Holland was considered a B-52 virtuoso and routinely did things in the big aircraft that no one else could or would, including flying at angles of attacks so steep that fuel streamed out of the wing tank vents - And this at airshows. He once, among many other reckless stunts which culminated in the fatal crash at Fairchild, buzzed his daughters softball team, entered a 70 degree bank and nearly fell out of the sky. It appears he had just enough altitude to recover, that time.
I heard he was known to be determined to roll the big bird, haven't seen where he actually had.
An acquaintance of mine was offered to fly as Bud's Co-pilot that day on the ill-fated Fairchild B-52 crash, but he refused. He told me that nobody in the squadron would fly with him because they considered him dangerous. That is the only reason that senior leadership (O-5's and higher) were the crewmembers, and not company or field grade officers.
Interesting videos showing some of Bud's antics in the B-52:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJl7b9bQH0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQa4PpIkOZU
Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:55 pm
Aeronut wrote:Both the Vulcan and Victor were capable of 'over the shoulder' bombing, pulling up from low level into a half loop, releasing the bomb on the way up and rolling off the top.
In the 80's I was at a Battle of Britain air show watching a Vulcan display with a USAF pilot stood alongside me. He was amazed that such a large aircraft could be thrown about like that, I was more surprised at his reaction than I was impressed by the Vulcan having seen it all before.
Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:01 pm
Xray wrote:OD/NG wrote:Xray wrote:As alluded to, "Bud" Holland was considered a B-52 virtuoso and routinely did things in the big aircraft that no one else could or would, including flying at angles of attacks so steep that fuel streamed out of the wing tank vents - And this at airshows. He once, among many other reckless stunts which culminated in the fatal crash at Fairchild, buzzed his daughters softball team, entered a 70 degree bank and nearly fell out of the sky. It appears he had just enough altitude to recover, that time.
I heard he was known to be determined to roll the big bird, haven't seen where he actually had.
An acquaintance of mine was offered to fly as Bud's Co-pilot that day on the ill-fated Fairchild B-52 crash, but he refused. He told me that nobody in the squadron would fly with him because they considered him dangerous. That is the only reason that senior leadership (O-5's and higher) were the crewmembers, and not company or field grade officers.
Interesting videos showing some of Bud's antics in the B-52:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJl7b9bQH0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQa4PpIkOZU
There used to be a real good writeup concerning Holland, link I have to it is dead.
Basically all of the info in the wiki writeup but alot more comprehensive.
The copilot on the Yakima range photo mission stated that on the last pass he calculated the B-52 was going to impact and repeatedly screamed for him to pull up. He looked over and Holland had a glossy, goofy look on his face and seemed froze. He thought he had target fixation and pulled the yoke himself, and Holland chewed him out and called him a big kittie - He calculated they cleared the ridge by less than 20 ft, and the photographers wisely scrambled away for their lives.
When they got to the ground he stormed into squadron commander McGeehan's office and said look, this guy is nuts and I am not flying with him any more. I'll gladly give my life for this country but I'll be damned if I give it flying with some maniac - I'd prefer a court marshal.
McGeehan told him don't worry, it won't come to that - From that day until the crash he sat in the right seat whenever Holland was flying, hoping his looming retirement would commence before a crash.
Years back on some obscure forum there was a post discussing the crash and Buds daughter was posting.
She stated that the reason he made such a sharp turn [after the waveoff] was because there was a nuclear storage area which aircraft are forbidden to fly over, and he had no choice but to turn sharp to avoid it.
I didn't feel qualified to offer an opinion on that then and don't now, but if I had to, I'd say BS.
[McGeehan's son also posted in that thread, he was easy on the girl but wouldn't accept that Bud had no choice but to enter a fatal turn, stall the jet and crash to avoid a nuclear storage area].
Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:17 pm
Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:50 pm
Xray wrote:As alluded to, "Bud" Holland was considered a B-52 virtuoso and routinely did things in the big aircraft that no one else could or would, including flying at angles of attacks so steep that fuel streamed out of the wing tank vents - And this at airshows. He once, among many other reckless stunts which culminated in the fatal crash at Fairchild, buzzed his daughters softball team, entered a 70 degree bank and nearly fell out of the sky. It appears he had just enough altitude to recover, that time.
I heard he was known to be determined to roll the big bird, haven't seen where he actually had.
OD/NG wrote:That may be true, I don't know. The Air Force does stipulate restrictions of flyovers over sensitive areas, including nuke storage facilities. Even if it were true, he should have abandoned the turn, rolled wings level to get his lift vector perpendicular to the ground and accepted flying over the sensitive area. Holland was teflon. Even if it were true, why would he think he would get in trouble this time versus all of the previous things he did wrong in the past? He even had half the senior leadership on board his aircraft as witnesses. Surely, if he got in trouble they would have recognized that overflying the nukes was the only option for a safe outcome. I'm sure they would buffer him from getting into trouble if that were the case and the crash didn't happen.
Let's assume that restriction of overflight of a nuke storage facility is true. There is not a leader in the Air Force that would advocate not flying over it and putting a national resource (B-52) and pilots' lives at stake. There is precedence for how the military would react for a prohibited overflight of a sensitive area:
1) Military as well as civilian aircraft have inadvertently flown over the prohibited area (P-56) of the White House without authorization by accident. Do they get in trouble? Yes. Do they go to jail? No, most don't if it is an accident and not intentional.
2) Both Military and civilian planes have over flown the Restricted areas in and around Area 51/Groom Lake either without authorization or by accident. Same thing. Yes, they get in trouble, but usually their careers (military and civilian) aren't in jeopardy provided it was an honest mistake and not intentional.
Just my opinion, but I don't believe for one second that was even a thought in Holland's mind about not overflying the Nuke storage area. Why would he "all of a sudden" have a conscious and not break a rule when he had been doing it his whole career? Especially, when his life depended on it?
It doesn't pass common sense in my opinion. But, we can "what if" and play armchair quarterback all day. The bottom line is that we will never know, and I could be entirely wrong.