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 Post subject: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:16 am 
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If somebody buys the PBY in the other thread here's a suggestion on markings............

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Not sure what the story is on the (un)happy looking fellows in the foreground, but found it here:

http://loudandclearisnotenought.blogspot.com/2009/08/



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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:46 am 
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We definitely need to find out the story behind that picture :)

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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:24 am 
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Scott WRG Editor wrote:
We definitely need to find out the story behind that picture :)


Scott - the aircraft is Argentine Navy 2-P-6, s/n 0238 ex-RCAF 9841. It was taking part in naval exercises at the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:42 pm 
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When I looked at the very interesting website that was listed above:

http://loudandclearisnotenought.blogspot.com/2009/08/

I thought that the designation PBV-1A was a mistake. However, I just now happened to be reading the PBY section of "United States Naval Aircraft since 1911" and learned that this was the designation for Lend-Lease purposes for BuNo 67832-68061 manufactured by Canadian Vickers Ltd.

Apparently, all 230 aircraft of this batch actually became OA-10A's in the USAAF. Another 149 aircraft built by Canadian Vickers became Canso's in the RCAF. Boeing in Canada built a total of 362 Cansos as well.

I trust that David Legg will correct any if this information that may be in error.


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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:16 am 
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Larry Kraus wrote:
I trust that David Legg will correct any if this information that may be in error.


Hi Larry - sorry for the slow reply but I have been away in France on holiday.

Although I have not studied the list of Argentine Catalinas/Cansos in the list on that website closely yet, I can say that the author has tied himself up in knots as regards the type designations although he may well just be copying what some others have written in the past (e.g. the book you quote from) and perpetuated earlier errors.

So, first, there was no such thing as a 'PBV-1A Canso' even though that designation appears in print from time to time That would mix up US Navy and RCAF designations. Canadian Vickers built Canso A amphibians for the RCAF and were also contracted to build PBV-1A Catalinas for the US Navy. Different contracts, different end-users and so different designations. In the event, none of the latter aircraft ever saw US Navy service and all went to the USAAF as OA-10A Catalinas straight off the Cartierville, PQ production line. These were the 230 aircraft you correctly mention. Canadian Vickers also built 139 (not 149) Canso As for the RCAF, 30 at St Hubert, PQ and the rest at Cartierville. The 362 aircraft that Boeing built at Sea Island, Vancouver, BC were not all Cansos as you quote. In fact, only 55 were and they were assembled from Consolidated-manufactured parts. It is not correct to call them PB2B-1 Canso As as the Argentine listing does as, again, that mixes up US Navy and RCAF designations. The remaining 307 aircraft were a mix of PB2B-1 and PB2B-2 non-amphibians and went to various Allied air forces, a few staying with the US Navy.

I hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:50 pm 
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Thanks for clearing that up, David. I'd never seen that PBV designation anywhere else and wondered if it was a misprint. I guess that even Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers can get it wrong once in a while. The exact wording on Page 82 of "United States Navy Aircraft since 1911" follows:

"The Canadian Vickers aircraft were designated PBV-1A by the Navy, but all 230 built (67832-68061) in fact went to the USAAF as OA-10A amphibians; another 149 built by Canadian Vickers went to the RCAF under the service name Canso. Boeing in Canada built a total of 362 Catalinas and Cansos, the first of which flew on May 12, 1943. This total included 240 flying-boats similar to the PBY-5, designated PB2B-1, plus 50 PB2B-2s similar to the PBN-1 described below, built on lend-lease contracts for the RAF, RAAF and RNZAF; and 17 Catalina's and 55 Canso amphibians for the RCAF."

It just goes to prove that mistakes in print, especially by authors that you would normally trust, seem to live on forever.


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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:46 am 
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Well Messrs Swanborough and Bowers were very highly respected authors but in that quote the figure 149 should be 139 and they were Canso As rather than Cansos. It is not really accurate to say that the PB2B-2 was similar to the PBN-1 - the only shared features were the modified vertical tail/rudder and full-span elevators (also shared with the PBY-6A). The PBN-1 had several other features that were unique to it including modified bow profile and turret, modified floats, modified hull. The figure of 362 Catalinas and 'Cansos' (sic) quoted by them is correct but you had originally mis-quoted as just 'Cansos'. The point they make about the PBV-1As is absolutely correct.

My main point however, was that the compilers of the Argentine list have made a mess of the designations by combining US Navy and RCAF designations for the same aircraft.

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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:50 am 
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OK David. So, the Canadian built aircraft are properly identified as a Canso. Or is it CANSO? As in "That aircraft parked over there is a Canso (CANSO).

If you have more than one, what is the proper pluralization of the name? Canso's or CANSO's? As in Those aircraft parked over there are Canso's (CANSO's).

C2j


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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:39 am 
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Well Canso is a place (a town and also a stretch of water known as the Strait of Canso). So it would be Canso or Canso A, not CANSO or CANSO A. Plural would be apostrophe s.

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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Um... you mean Cansos or Cansoes? Apostrophe S is descriptive or possessive, says the d@mn proofreader (sorry - I've done this for a living and can't quit :oops: )

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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:28 pm 
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David, have you seen this website? This section covers PBY losses:

https://aviation-safety.net/database/ty ... ina/losses:

If you click on the date, a more detailed report will appear. This site also uses multiple designations to describe the aircraft type. I assume that this is used a a general reference rather than an absolutely accurate designation as that on the actual aircraft data plate.

This one, for instance references a Boeing-Canada PB2B-1 Canso A (PBY-5A), which from your previous post is obviously not correct, especially the PBY-5A reference as the PB2B-1 was a pure flying-boat, unless I'm really confused.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19520518-0

What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:14 am 
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Chris Brame wrote:
Um... you mean Cansos or Cansoes? Apostrophe S is descriptive or possessive, says the d@mn proofreader (sorry - I've done this for a living and can't quit :oops: )


Agreed!! I do not know what I was thinking of - of course you are absolutely correct!! Cansos and Canso As. Back of class for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:38 am 
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[quote="Larry Kraus" .........This one, for instance references a Boeing-Canada PB2B-1 Canso A (PBY-5A), which from your previous post is obviously not correct, especially the PBY-5A reference as the PB2B-1 was a pure flying-boat, unless I'm really confused. https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19520518-0 What do you think?[/quote]

You cannot have a "PB2B-1 Canso A (PBY-5A)" as that mixes up three separate 'types' of the basic design. Whilst the PB2B-1 and PBY-5A designations both related to US Navy aircraft, they are not transferable as the PB2B-1 and PBY-5A were built by different manufacturers, the first by Boeing Aircraft of Canada Ltd and the second by Consolidated. Plus, the PB2B- 1 was not an amphibian whilst the PBY-5A was. The same goes for the Canso A - although Boeing' built some, they were all amphibs whereas the rest of Boeing's production were non-amphibs - PB2B-1s and PB2B-2s.

I think you are right inasmuch as the ASN website is using multiple designations but they should not be mixed. Does it matter? - I think it does but others may disagree.

Two observations - civilian 'Catalinas' were often registered with type designations different to the ones they were originally built as. We've been here before in other WIX threads - an example would be our UK aircraft G-PBYA which was built as a Canso A but recognised by the CAA as a PBY-5A.

Second, a few US wartime Catalinas were transferred from the US Navy to the USAAF and at least one OA-10A went from the USAAF to the US Navy (BuNo 21232). When the latter aircraft was sold by the FAA to its first civil owner it was quoted as a PBY-5A. I suspect the US Navy to USAAF aircraft were referred to by the OA- etc designation after the USAAF took then on.

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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Thanks again David,

I have to agree that identifying aircraft designations correctly is important. However, it's never really easy.

For instance, one of the Twin Beeches that I flew many years ago (N6688) had a data plate that identified it as "SNB-5P". The airworthiness certificate identified the aircraft as a "TC-45J" and the button in the center of the control yoke said "Beech 18". All were correct and I've read that most of the SNB-5 production consisted of conversions from earlier SNB models. That airplane had faired over camera ports in the belly, so I believe the "P" for photo suffix.

That's not the same as mixing and matching incompatible designations, but it does pose a challenge.


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 Post subject: Re: Shark mouth Cat
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:56 am 
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Hi All,
0238 / 3-G-2
Canadian Vickers c/n CV-275
ex-RCAF 9841

0238 Armada Argentina, Comando de Aviación Naval 31.10.1947
- Características:
2-P-6 Escuadrilla de Patrulleros de la Fuerza Aeronaval de la Zona Naval Marítima. BACE, 1953.
2-P-13 Utilizado para las pruebas operativas del sistema RATO en Catierville (Montreal). Arribó al país el 31.10.47
2-P-11 DIRECCIÓN GENERAL DE ADMINISTRACIÓN NAVAL (DGAN) 15.11.47
- Aterrizaje forzoso en la Base Aeronaval Comandante Espora el 30.09.48, reparado.
2-P-6 Escuadrilla de Patrulleros/Escuadra Aeronaval N"2, 08.06.49 - 1" Escuadrilla de Patrulleros entre 1955 y 1957
5-P-2 Grupo Aeronaval de la Flota, 07.11.1958. donde sirvió hasta el 13/5/1959,
3-G-2 EAPG de Punta Indio el 03/03.1964, dado de baja en 1964

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