Warbird Information Exchange

Old News ?

http://www.platinumfighters.com/p-51d-n38227

Phil

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A man's got to know his limitations.

Yeah, it has been for sale with Platinum since 2014. Also, it was not a "barn find", as the broker likes to market it as, but simply kept in a hangar for many years (a good number of warbird people well aware of it and the rest of the collection) - the last of many Mustangs once owned by Connie Edwards.

P-51 message and Encyclopedia Terrell...say it aint so??

Those are new pictures.
They finally brought it out in the sun. (but they didn't dust it off )

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remember the Oogahonk!
old school enthusiast of Civiltary Warbirds and Air Racers

That is a beauty - plus whoever ponies up the $4.5M will get the best backstock of mustang parts EVER!

Tom P.

How did the television "hoarders" shows miss this one? Answer: No neighborhood association in Connie's back 40. Slightly off topic, but germane to P-51's...The last photo in the cockpit shows what appears to be, or similar to, a Warren McArthur seat. My question is, are there any online sources of photos ID'ing the variations of this design. As I understand, "Little Friends II" covers the subject pretty well but I don't have a copy. I've also been lead to believe the T-6 also had the WM seats. I've seen one with adjustment levers on the sides and am curious on ID. Unfortunately there is no data plate or stencil serial left. Thanks folks!

_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

The Warren McArthur and Schick Johnson seats are interchangeable (they mount to the same sized/positioned seat posts), and versions of each are used in both the Mustang and T-6. Both have levers on each side - one to adjust the seat up and down (at the right of the seat), and another to lock/unlock the pilot's harness (usually at the left of the seat). Among the best Mustang researchers I've heard from/talked to, there isn't a firm consensus on which seat type was used per which particular Mustang production run/batch (other than perhaps the P-51D-5-NA and very early Allison Mustangs), since these seats in particular were sub-contracted out/government-furnished equipment (much like how there were two different types of wingtip nav lights used on the D-model Mustangs, depending on which was available at any given time) - to know, per plane, you'd have to see what the seat was in an original wartime-era photo. The seat on this one is a Warren McArthur-type seat - it seems as though there is probably about an equal percentage of each seat type (WM/SJ) fitted to the Mustangs flying today, and perhaps in the T-6 too. The P-51D-20-NA "Sierra Sue II" has a Warren McArthur seat, because that is what it had in it prior to restoration, and the P-51D-20-NA "Upupa Epops" has a Schick Johnson seat, because that is what it had prior to restoration. The preserved/unrestored P-51K's in the Netherlands and at the Crawford Museum, as well as a preserved/unrestored P-51D-25-NA in Switzerland, have WM seats, where as the preserved P-51D-30-NA at the Smithsonian has a SJ seat.

Some T-6's and dual-seat Mustangs have one of each seat type, as usually did the field-modded two-seat P-51B/C's during the war.

Warren McArthur seat (of which there are variations):







Schick Johnson seat (of which there are variations):

Thank you very much for the education John. The example I'm referring to is most, in fact pretty much exact, to the one in the second illustration. A straight front edge welded seat pan and same levers. There is a small hinge(#74) riveted to the front center of the rear of the seat pan, but only 1/2 of the hinge is riveted with the other half free to flop about. I've seen another WM with this feature, got any clue what that hinges function is? As per the illustration, is this Warren McArthur permutation an earlier version more common in the B/C 'Stang and T-6?

_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

I know very little when it comes to the T-6, but with regard to the Warren McArthur lower seat pan/bucket as you describe, I've always understood the ones with the straight forward tubing of the seat pan/bucket to be of the early style. As for P-51B/C's, like the D's, a good number had Schick Johnson seats installed (wood versions very early on, but metal ones for the most part) and a good number had Warren McArthur seats installed too - those that had the WM seats would certainly have had those early versions with the straight forward edge to the seat pan, as that is what you still find on early production P-51D's (for instance, the seat from Bill Preddy's P-51K-5-NT still survives, and it was one of those with the straight forward edge/tubing - although it has a big kink in it today, that was as a result of the seat hitting the control stick when the plane crashed). All of the P-51D-5-NA's I've ever referenced have the early Warren McArthur seat, however in some factory photos I've got from the cockpit of a P-51D-10-NA, it already has the later-style Warren McArthur seat with the curved/notched front edge/tubing.

With regard to the hinge you mention, I've never been able to find out what that was for, and it doesn't show up on any of the later WM seats I've seen - the early WM seat that I mentioned belonged to Bill Preddy's aircraft has that hinge, and you say, one end isn't attached to anything (I left it off my virtual creations).

Encyclopedia Terrell hard at work...

Thanks for the further info John. It might have been you who clued me in on the "Little Friends II" reference previously as I recall it being on a sim site and reading the same "bent straight-tubing" reference to Preddy's bird. You are a "beesy leetle beabare", as our Canadian friends may say! A real marvel!
As I understand, on later examples of the Warren McArthur the seat pan was riveted rather than welded to save production time or costs. As for that hinge flopping about, it comes under Navy nomenclature as "an article adrift" in my technical mentality. Although the corners are not sharp, they are minimally radiused and the hinge is available to catch on things. To put it technically, it bugs me being like that. Things that make you go hmmmnn....

Hmmnn, news is on, looks like we lost an F-16 at Ellington this morning. Pilot ejected and is OK. The aircraft is intact at the runway but it burned and there was a safety evac perimeter instituted as it is purported to have had live weapons on board. Glad to hear the incident was contained.

_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

The Schick Johnson pictured is magnesium BTW.

Interesting, the strategic materials conservation must of been relaxed by then. Still you'd think they'd save magnesium for more critical stuff like wheels and nose cases etc. With all its bits, levers and linkages and such, the Warren McArthur I described only weighed about 8 pounds.
Tho, if you can afford it then "adding lightness" everywhere you can has its rewards in fuel savings.

_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

My T-6 came with a Warren Mac in front and a Shick in the back. I doubt it left the factory like that, but it left the SAAF like that for sure.

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Rob C

Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. “

– Michael Crichton

I stumbled into a revised P-51D manual circa 1954 over on http://www.scribd.com. The hinge part assembly labeled #74 on the P-51B/C illustration above is, #70 of Illustration 103, on the the later manual. 103-70, part# 241AS8, Fitting Assy-Harness(Warren McArthur).
Of that unit, the actual hinge piece in the illustration is 103-71, part#241-39 Plate, Strap(Warren McArthur). No illustration of what it looks like assembled to whut strap, but there ya go...

_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF