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Classic Wings Magazine Luftwaffe Resource Center WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Christoph Jacques Spitfire XIX crashed on take-off in France yesterday. Pilot OK but a spectator injured by flying prop bits...


https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=196094

:spit


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:10 pm 
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Video on facebook at https://www.facebook.com/airlivenews/vi ... 183447697/
https://www.facebook.com/airlivenews/videos/1632290183447697/

or youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-uQqXKBYAg
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Image
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Photos remind me of Tim Wallis' Griffon-engined Spit prang a few years ago.

I would say this was a very lucky pilot.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Video from a different angle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnVAPfCgjxI


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:22 pm 
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mike furline wrote:
Video from a different angle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnVAPfCgjxI


Good video that shows everything unobstructed.

Too much power or too much brake?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Just a guess. Maybe he was too aggressive with the initial application of power and/or bringing the tail up. The tail seemed to pendulously keep going up and he doesn't apply back stick until the tail is already way too high for takeoff. Simple mistake you can get away with in other airplanes but not the MK 19.
He was tracking the centerline so it doesn't seem like he needed brakes, the correct adjustment would've been less throttle.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:09 pm 
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The old girl is well and truly bent. Very glad the pilot is uninjured and hopefully the spectator's injuries are not serious. I do my best to be cognizant at all times just how quickly a situation can turn ugly and this is another reminder of that fact. I imagine we won't see PS890 back in the air any time soon but I am sure she will return at some point.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:43 pm 
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marine air wrote:
Just a guess. Maybe he was too aggressive with the initial application of power and/or bringing the tail up. The tail seemed to pendulously keep going up and he doesn't apply back stick until the tail is already way too high for takeoff. Simple mistake you can get away with in other airplanes but not the MK 19.
He was tracking the centerline so it doesn't seem like he needed brakes, the correct adjustment would've been less throttle.


Don't know if it was human input or control issue but the tail came up WAY too soon. With that much boost the torque forces in roll and the gyroscopic precession forces present as the prop disk rotated in pitch would have been tremendous. P Factor with the prop disk angular to the relative wind would also have been a player.The result would have been as occurred.
Dudley Henriques


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:02 pm 
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seagull61785 wrote:
Photos remind me of Tim Wallis' Griffon-engined Spit prang a few years ago.

I was afraid this would be a repeat of NH799 in terms of how it happened (2 January 1996). Today's the first time I've seen a video of the PS890 crash, thank goodness it was comparatively slow.

seagull61785 wrote:
I would say this was a very lucky pilot.

The start of this video shows the pilot doing up his helmet, the same sort of soft one Sir Tim was wearing in the aforementioned crash. Considering the Spitfire ended up on its back I really hope he's okay.

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"It's his plane, he spent the money to restore it, he can do with it what he wants. I will never understand what's hard to comprehend about this." - kalamazookid


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:05 pm 
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Well explained Dudley,

A thought came to mind that if the pilot had being flying Merlin-powered versions prior to the incident, he may have wound the rudder trim the wrong way (out of habit) pre take-off, which would have made the Griffon-powered mk XIX virtually uncontrollable as it swings the other way. Hard to make out where the rudder trim was set on t/off as the photos show it separated from the rudder.

However on looking closely at one of the videos it seems to show the rudder trim is intact and firmly out to the left after it came to rest inverted. This is before the crowd descends on the machine to bodily lift it clear, where the trim separation damage likely occurred.

I may be wrong but if the Griffon swings to the left on application of take-off power then shouldn't the rudder trim be out to the right?

Wouldn't be the first Spitfire pilot to be caught out in this manner.

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Little Johnny : "When I grow up I want to be a pilot!"

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Last edited by seagull61785 on Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:06 pm 
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Once again, exactly what happened to Sir Tim in 96! Had been flying his XVI the day before, went into the XIV....

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"It's his plane, he spent the money to restore it, he can do with it what he wants. I will never understand what's hard to comprehend about this." - kalamazookid


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:20 pm 
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seagull61785 wrote:
Well explained Dudley,

A thought came to mind that if the pilot had being flying Merlin-powered versions prior to the incident, he may have wound the rudder trim the wrong way pre take-off, which would have made the Griffon-powered mk XIX virtually uncontrollable as it swings the other way.

Wouldn't be the first Spitfire pilot to be caught out in this manner.


I've noticed through the years when discussing trim on these fighters with pilots seeking checkouts that it seems a common belief that trim plays a much more dramatic role on takeoff than it actually does.
Naturally setting up the rudder trim improperly wouldn't help the issue but during takeoff it's rudder that's predominant and especially early in the takeoff run the trim has little effect if countered by rudder.
On the Mustang for example, you preset for 6 right. You correct using rudder during the 55 inches stage of the takeoff then reduce to a METO setting of 46/2700 for the climb. It's THERE where that 6 degrees right rudder trim balances out for you.
So to be accurate one should consider the rudder trim initial setting as optimized for the climb as opposed to being critical on the takeoff run.

The nose on this Spit was literally horsed down early. Can't say why but pilots flying these fighters regularly know not to do that so the fact that it was done I would find highly irregular for this pilot.
The investigation will reveal more information I'm sure.
What a shame. Wishing him well of course.
Dudley Henriques


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:06 am 
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I was very glad to see the swift response in getting him out of the airplane. It seems as though there have been too many instances in the past where an airplane ends up on its back and there is a fatality due to a slow response from the rescue team.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:13 am 
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CJAM427 wrote:
I was very glad to see the swift response in getting him out of the airplane. It seems as though there have been too many instances in the past where an airplane ends up on its back and there is a fatality due to a slow response from the rescue team.


Yes, first response is critical. We learned that with Eddie Andreini. Eddie's accident caused massive discussion within the industry and changes have been implemented that it's hoped will prevent something like that from happening again. The pilots spoke up and were heard!
I am reminded of how we lost Charlie Hilliard. Anything that puts an aircraft end over end or inverted on a runway is cause for serious concern.
Dudley Henriques


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:18 am 
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dhenriques wrote:
CJAM427 wrote:
I was very glad to see the swift response in getting him out of the airplane. It seems as though there have been too many instances in the past where an airplane ends up on its back and there is a fatality due to a slow response from the rescue team.


Yes, first response is critical. We learned that with Eddie Andreini. Eddie's accident caused massive discussion within the industry and changes have been implemented that it's hoped will prevent something like that from happening again. The pilots spoke up and were heard!
I am reminded of how we lost Charlie Hilliard. Anything that puts an aircraft end over end or inverted on a runway is cause for serious concern.
Dudley Henriques


Hilliard and Andreini's accidents were exactly what was on my mind when I typed that.


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