Warbird Information Exchange

Didn't the guy Larkins already do a comprehensive sonar survey for the Navy several years back already ?
They already know where two of the most desirable planes are [ Hellcat and Corsair ] ..bring them up dammit !

Dave

I may be wrong on this but I think it is all to do with money..

The navy will not pay for the GPS locations so they have spent large amounts of tax payers money looking for themselves

seems like penny wise pound foolish to me but what do I know

happy to be proved wrong

First of all, I am completely against the Navy's policies on recovering aircraft. I think they are letting our history corrode a little farther each day.

With that being said............

Rob,

I don't doubt for a moment that you are sincere in your efforts to change the Navy way of doing things. I also have no doubt that it needs to be done. What I am concerned about is the way you are doing it. You are fast loosing any credibility that you might have had in this matter with the way you say and write things. Do you think that the Navy, the NHC, the Department of Commerce or anybody else for that matter is worried about your threats? I don't know Mr. Neyland or Ms. Coble, but I'd be willing to bet that they aren't too scared of you.

I think you are doing this movement far more damage than you realize.

Your not the only person with "sources" and I can tell you that you have become a joke to alot of people. I'm pretty much a nobody in the warbird world but I can tell you that I'm as embarassed as I can be that it's you who have crowned yourself king of the anti Navy militia. I'm really worried that people who read your diatribe might think you are speaking for the warbird community as a whole. You could set this movement back farther than the Navy ever will! Now if somebody with a little tact and diplomatic skill was to step up and run things, I don't doubt that the Navy could be made to change their way of business. I have no idea who that person might be, but it isn't you Rob.



By the way, I'm no english teacher, but I'm pretty sure the word is "circumvent", not serpentvent.

_________________
Brad

Rob

Have to say I agree with Brads concerns about this , running battles are all well and good , but they shouldn't extend to public forums and involve open threats - which could lead to the forum being pulled , something that happened twice to the original Warbirds Worldwide forum and its short lived follow up . I know the closure of those led to the start of WIX ....but I would hate to see this one go the same way .....withdrawal symptoms would be unbearable ;-0

regards
Dave

Hmmm..how come I showed up as 'Guest' and didn't get my little wavy flag ?

Dave

Brad -

Well said. If you weren't a DoD employee, I'd nominate you!!

The same goes for me, unfortunately.

Rob, the truth is that this meeting is an exceptional opportunity. All of the players you have convinced to attend the meeting are influential and decisionmakers, and if approached correctly the meeting could have a pretty significant impact.

If apporached poorly, the only result will be to reinforce in those peopes' minds the very decisions you and many others object to. It will also likely make another meeting such as this in the future impossible. It will probably have a significant *negative* effect if it is not planned and executed correctly.

Having worked with civilians in the DoD system, I concur with Brad's assertion that these folks are not phased in the slightest by threats, legal name-dropping, or anything else. "We, the taxpayers" means precisely dick to them, right or wrong. The fight between Bob Hoover and the FAA a few years ago should be enough proof that simple "facts" and the light-of-day provided by publicity aren't enough to overcome big, inefficient bureaucracies and the power held by an ignorant few.

Arguments need to be built up methodically and on a legal (and historical) basis. There can't be any tainting by emotion, because those people can simply pick up and leave if you start to piss them off -- they're under no obligation to be there.

So...please, please...for all of our sake, let's not squander this opportunity. I also think that this event is not being taken with the enormity that it deserves. The warbird community has 4 months to get it's act together and the clock is ticking. Somebody needs to step up in a BIG way, take a leadership role, and start generating legitimate interest and backing from warbird owners (versus us wanna-bes here on the internet). Start working your contacts, people.

Rob,
I think that you are well-meaning, and I for one don't question your sincerity or heart-felt emotion. However, I think we do have to be careful in the way the matter is presented. Here is a compilation of verses from the Holy Scriptures that I think relate to this topic rather well.

Proverbs 16:21
The wise in heart will be called understanding, and sweetness of speech increases persuasiveness.

Proverbs 16:23-24
The heart of the wise teacheth his mouth, and addeth learning to his lips.
Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.

Proverbs 14:3
In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.

Proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

Proverbs 18:20
A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.

Proverbs 22:11
He that loveth pureness of heart, for the grace of his lips the king shall be his friend.

Ecclesiastes 10:12
The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.

I don't mean to preach, but we gotta be careful.

Ryan

_________________
Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

OH GOD PLEASE SHOOT ME!! WELL I MAY NEED ALL WHO HAVE A STAKE IN THIS ISSUE UPMOST SUPPORT .IM WILLING TO TAKE THE HELM I KNOW ALLOT OF THE WARBIRD PEOPLE AND ALSO HAVE PREVIOUS POSITIVE EXPERIENCE WITH THIS ISSUE. I JUST RETURNED FROM THE GREAT STATE OF ALASKA STILL HOME OF LOTS OF WW11 WRECKS ,A VISIT TO THE ALASKA AVIATION HISTORICAL MUSEUM WAS ENJOYABLE YET DISHARTENING SUCH RARE AIRCRAFT AND NO FINANCIAL SUPPORT FOR THEIR RESTORATION.IM VERY BUSY WITH MY CURRENT PROJECT BUT ALSO SEE THE NEED TO TAKE THE CHANCE TO HELP CHANGE A LONG AND FOOLISH POLICY OF PRESEVATION THAT SEEMS TO TIE EVERYONES HANDS AND MAKES THE FRAGILE SUBJECT/NAVAL AIRCRAFT,OFF LIMITS AND IN DANGER OF DESTRUCTION!!IVE REALLY HELD BACK ON THIS AS NO ONE WANTS THE CANNON POINTED AT YOU BUT I FEEL I HAVE A POSITIVE TRACK RECORD AT RECOVERY/RESTORATION OF THE A-25/SB2C PROJECT WHICH WAS INVOLVED IN A NAVY VS. THE LITTLE GUYS CASE AND HAS RESULTED IN A RESTORED RARE A-25 GOING TO THE AIR FORCE MUSEUM.I CAN ONLY HOPE THAT THE NAVY WILL SEE THAT GIVEN THE CHANCE THE PRIVATE SECTOR CAN DO AMAIZING THINGS WITH THE WRECKAGE THAT STILL SURVIVES!!BUT COST IT SELF IS ENOUGH TO STOP THE FAINT OF HART RECOVERY /RESTORATION IS LOTS OF HARD HARD WORK AND TONS OF CASH! DONT ENTER IN IF YOU PLAN TO GET RICH OVER NIGHT!IF ANYONE OUT THERE WANTS TO HELP PLEASE CONTACT ME AT HELLDIVERS@AOL.COM THANKS AND AGAIN THIS MAY BE A ONE SHOT CHANCE AT CHANGING A CRAZY POLICY AIMED AT DESTRUCTION NOT PRESERVATION THANKS MIKE

...and that is precisely the problem. This isn't directed at you personally, Rob, but more the entire WIX community that you are speaking for. There's no question that your heart is in the right place and you have deep sincerity in the goals you are trying to achieve. In my humble opinion, those traits aren't enough to ensure success in "fighting the man" over the fate of Navy warbirds and wrecks.

Isn't it that "rest of the warbird movement" that you're really trying to help? I have to wonder why they might not want to participate in this.

First off, I think many people probably don't know about it. I haven't seen an announcement of it on any other warbird-oriented message boards I read. I know for a fact that numerous warbird owners actively read the forum over at AAFO.com, and a couple more participate at warbirdaeropress.com -- those would be prime places to get the discussion flowing.

Again, it's not the people who read the WIX that I'm concerned about. Let's face it...no matter what we'd like to think, there aren't any readers here that have much in the way of actual influence. We don't own or operate a large number of aircraft. We don't represent a large segment of a voting population. We don't have any organization or financial operations. We are a bunch of guys who are warbird enthusiasts participating in a discussion group. That's not exactly the voice that's going to change minds among the head-sheds with the Navy.

Having one or more "heavy hitters" is what this side of the argument needs to have any kind of credibility. Perhaps a Paul Allen, or a Del Smith, a Poberezny, or a Bob Jepson, who have turned their fortunes toward preservation of warbirds. Maybe a Sanders brother or a "Chino Kid" who has actually put time, effort, and lots of money into numerous restorations. How about a Lee Lauderback or a Dale Snodgrass, who work and fly warbirds with the USAF and Navy and have some large-scale credibility. How about Bill Anders, who runs his own warbird museum and just happens to be a retired Major General and Apollo astronaut?

What about some of these guys who have fought the system and won (Corsair guy, perhaps)? How about some of the air museums who have been caught in the middle of this mess? Have they been contacted? At a minimum some backing and representation by the CAF or Collings Foundation or Fighter Factory or....SOMEBODY.

How about some elected officials? Senators or Representatives? At least some state elected officials? Duke Cunningham?

Do we have a lawyer who can research what the law is, and present a sound, logical argument about some of the ways the current policy is illegal or contradictory? Jail-house lawyers aren't going to cut it in this case, as they probably can't handle all the reactive legaleze the Navy can throw when they're accused.

No offense intended, guys, but I'll bet my life savings that seven guys from the WIX won't even make a ripple in the ocean toward changing the minds of the people you're going to meet. If we want this to be a success instead of a whimper, we need to think a *lot* bigger than we are. If we're serious, we need to ACT big, too.

Some suggestions: Have a website that people can visit with the details of the meeting (where, when). Have specific stated goals that website visitors can see. Advertise that website on message boards. Take out an ad in next month's Air Classics or Warbirds International to advertise. Have an email address, phone number, or some other way that people can communicate that they want to participate.

I feel like a bit of a stooge commenting like this and not volunteering my own services to help. The fact is, I am a DOD employee and I'm not about to go sacrificing the livelihood of me and my family over this. It's one thing for a civilian to say and do the things we're talking about here -- it's another thing entirely for an active duty servicemember to be saying those things on the record. I haven't asked my local JAG, but I'd hazard a guess that it's probably illegal for an officer to do such things.

So, anyway...my warning and challenge remains: I warn that failure to approach this meeting properly will result in some bad stuff; I challenge you of the WIX to pick up the guidon and run with it, enlisting some serious help along the way. 4 months and counting to make it happen.

If you don't....you might as well just cancel the meeting to save us all the embarassment.

Mike and Rob,

Mike it's wonderful to see you step up to the plate and lend Mr. Rohr and company a hand with this very important issue. You among a select few of others can lend a lot of legitimacy to the meeting. Another piece of the puzzle that is missing is a bit of Washington muscle. Who was the senator that recently put a quick end to Mr. Crawleys (Spelling) case over the F3A? There’s a man that could be the point person you are looking for. Another potentially influential person for the campaign would be a certain wealthy gentleman and warbird collector currently living in Palm Springs. He has in past worked several very interesting "Deals" with the Navy and has also donated LARGE amounts of money to the museum in Pensacola. To anybody that has visited that establishment, note who is listed as the key donor for the library wing.

Contacting as many of the major museums and private collectors across the country and getting them to send one individual of high rank from their organization also comes to mind as a good idea. Names like Hinton, Maloney, Pardue, Edwards, Parish, Waltrip are but a few that pop into my mind right off hand but there are plenty more…..How about the EAA’s “Pope”?

Don’t expect these people to seek you out since most of them may not even know you exist. You will need to ferret them out and kindly persuade them to back you up. This will mean that you will do most of the leg work for them, a small price to pay if an amicable resolution with the Navy is reached in the end.

Rob, I’m sure what the others are trying to say about you toning down your style is not meant as an attack on you. It’s obvious your heart is in the right place and your passion shows, however, personal attacks, especially those made publicly are absolutely out of line no matter how you may feel about a person and it does not matter what they have done to you in past. What it boils down to is legitimacy of your character in the eyes of the very powerful and influential. Nobody, especially the wealthy and powerful has any desire to be associated with a loose, unpredictable cannon that could misfire at anytime.

Kindest regards,
John Beyl
CC Red Tail Mustang

I don't usually get all serious on this forum, BUT, I think its time to through my two cents-worth into this matter. I haven't know Rob Rohr as long as some of you may have. It's been about ten years since we met when we were members of the Maine Aviation Historical Society(Rob was a founder). I've seen him in action. He knows more about aviation history in general and Warbirds in particular then I will ever know. When there is a dirty job to be done, the first person I'd call would be Rob. He's the guy who is alway willing to get his hands dirty or if the situation calls for it, to take the heat for something, if it means getting the job done. And he knows that sometimes his brand of "justice" doesn't work and someone else is needed to step in and follow through with the work he has started. He would be the first to say he's not a "Brooks Brothers" kind of guy. To say Rob gets excited is an understatement. You can tell by his typing. Thats not ignorence, thats a case of the words coming faster then the fingers can put it down. I do agree on toning down the personal attacks and Rob and I have had some long discussions on the subject and what it can do to a cause. To quote
Rob," I don't need to be in charge, just use me at what I do best"(That might not be an exact quote as the conversation took place about 4yrs ago). And to Mike, Thanks for stepping up to the plate! I know this is a big thing for anyone to volunteer for but with someone like you as the spokesman and with Rob coordinating the research, I don't belive this issue will be just swept under the rug with a little lip service! Yes, this is for all the Warbird owners out there and in turn it's for everyone of us who will risk life and limb to get just a small glimpse of an old airplane. The sight and sound of a Allison, Rolls Royce, P&W or Curtiss-powered aircraft(and jets,too!) in the air is beyond words. I may be just a fringe element in the Warbird world , but as I told Rob, if you need my help in any way(licking stamps.....oops, self-stick now, and me working for the Postal Service and all!), Mike, let me know. Give'em Hell, Rob! Just don't Actually BITE anybody this time! I think I've over-stayed my welcome on the old soap box so I will relinqish my claim and pass it on.

For everyone that does not know:

www.ATRecovery.com

I believe the Secretary of the Navy has begun to realize that the staff of the NHC has hindered the preservation of Naval Aviation history. Four years ago we showed NHC the damage that was being done in Lake Michigan by the Zebra Mussels and soon the truth of what NHC has done that is counter to Navy objectives will become known.

Taras