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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:40 am 
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Location: Grimsby, UK
Jordan.
You have my admiration for continuing this enquiry.

I have not purchased many full reports but I have quick look through those I have. I found three instances (each were PT-19s) where there was a number at the top right hand of a document similar to your BT-13A Field Report. In each case it appeared likely to be the School or Field Number. The example in this flickr link is from one of my AAIR downloaded reports...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/136687500@N04/36725651812/in/datetaken/

In this instance there is no photograph nor anything in the narrative to confirm "#43" is the school number.

However, I have two earlier accident reports which were delivered on paper and thus I shall need to scan, but these do provide a definite answer.

Two PT-19s 40-2674 and 40-2438 were involved in a collision at the Auxiliary Field, north of Municipal Field, Tulsa on 14th February, 1941. This was the Army contract school operated by Spartan in Tulsa.

The Field Report for PT-19, 40-2674 shows "#74" in the top RH.
The Field Report for PT-19, 40-2438 shows "#114" in the top RH.

The written evidence includes the following.."I was coming in for a landing in airplane number 74 (PT-19 40-2674). Upon landing I saw I was too close to the stage house and also saw airplane number 114 (PT-19 40-2438)...."

I feel sure you can be confident that "824" was the field number for that particular BT-13A.

Cheers, Tony


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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Tony,

Thank you for the kind words. We're planning to paint the aircraft (41-11538) this winter, thus I've continued researching this in hopes of being able to paint the "GRxxx" fuselage code on it.

Great info from your reports! It would be great if you're able to provide a scan of those documents you referenced. These would be beneficial for the case I am putting together to identify the aircraft.

Regarding your comment

M-62A wrote:
I feel sure you can be confident that "824" was the field number for that particular BT-13A.


I just wanted to clarify terminology. When you state "field number" is that the 3-digit portion of the fuselage code to which I am referring? Still a bit of a learning process for me, so want to understand the terminology correctly. Thus, "GR824" is the fuselage code, while "824" itself is the field number?

Best Regards,
Jordan

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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Location: Grimsby, UK
Jordan,
Sorry, I am probably confusing you by using different terminology. You have called them Fuselage Codes - much as we would the Squadron Code letters, etc., on combat aircraft. I called them School Numbers - because I have come across that term before. Looking the the Accident Reports they are referred to there as Field Numbers. They are really all the same thing. I think all schools applied these field numbers to individual aircraft to enable the identification of a pilot committing a misdemeanor, such as low flying.

As you can see from the Website Dave pointed to..http://www.fuselagecodes.com/id1.html

Many Basic, Advanced and Transition schools applied one or two letter codes as a suffix to the Field Number. Hence Greenville's airplane #824 is a BT-13A with the fuselage markings "GR824".

A cross-country navigational exercise would take a crew and their aircraft quite distance from their home base and may likely involve using another training field as a stopping place. Hence there could be two BT-13 numbered both identified (as an example) "#100" in the same airspace at the same time. The use of different code letters by each school would reduce the chance of identifying the wrong aircraft.

I have now scanned five relevant pages of the AAIR PT-19 40-2438 & 40-2674 accident report. You should be able to find them in the same Flick Album as the first image. If necessary try clicking on "photostream" arrow to navigate your way through album. Hope it works OK - this is first time I have created an album on Flickr.

Cheers, Tony


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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:30 pm 
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M-62A wrote:

I have now scanned five relevant pages of the AAIR PT-19 40-2438 & 40-2674 accident report. You should be able to find them in the same Flick Album as the first image. If necessary try clicking on "photostream" arrow to navigate your way through album. Hope it works OK - this is first time I have created an album on Flickr.


Thank you Tony!

I'm familiar with the background and useage of fuselage codes, it was just the terminology "field number" that you were using that was different, so I wanted to confirm we were talking about the same thing. After looking at the documents you uploaded, I see they had a field labeled "Field Number" on the "Air Corps Training Detachment Tulsa, Oklahoma" form.

Expanding the discussion on fuselage codes history, prior to the alpha-numeric codes we've been discussing, training aircraft had the last 6 digits of the serial number emblazened upon the side of the fuselage in large font. This was separate from serial number painted on the tail, or the data block near the fuselage. See this example;

Image

This is likely our fallback plan for the paint scheme should we not be able to make a relatively educated guess (or definitive finding) of the fuselage code of 41-11538. In our case, we'd have "111538" in large font on the side of the aircraft. "GR123" would look much nicer (in my opinion).

I appreciate you taking the time to upload those accident report files.

Best Regards,
Jordan

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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:04 am 
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Location: Grimsby, UK
Jordan,
It is my understanding that marking the A.A.F. serial number in large characters on the fuselage side as seen in your last photo (41-10614) was carried on for only a short period. This is purely based on the small number of photos I have seen of PT and BT aircraft marked in that style - compared with later styles. If anyone else has any other views on this observation - please put your hand up!

BT-13As 41-10614 and 41-11537/GR824 are seen in both photos with a dark fuselage, light coloured flying surfaces and numbering. I am sure it is safe to assume these are the early Blue and Yellow trainer colours. I understand the Blue/Yellow scheme was phased out in August 1942 and from there on Trainer aircraft were delivered with silver (aluminium pigment) doped fabric and unpainted aluminium. The USAAF star changed around this period as well. Existing Aircraft in Blue and Yellow would presumably be refinished during the next major overhaul or repair. Hence 41-11537 was still in Blue & Yellow at the time of its February 1943 accident.

I feel sure the Field Code and Field Number format (i.e., GR824) stayed in use for a longer period. We can see it used in the Blue/Yellow February 1943 pic and there are many examples of the same code/field no. format used on aluminium finished BTs and ATs on the Fuselage Codes website.

At present we cannot say how your 41-11538 was marked when first delivered or when the GR- codes were applied. The AFHRA's Greenville School history file suggested earlier might mention the re-marking of aircraft. Not having seen the file I have idea of how detailed the record is.

I looked at the individual record card CD again today. The following BT-13As were assigned to Greenville, MS.: 41-11506 to 41-11515 (10 a/c, delivered Dec 1/41); 41-11536 to 41-11545 (10 a/c, delivered between Dec 1 and 5/41); 41-11566 to 41-11575 (10 a/c, delivered Dec 5/41) and 41-11586 (delivered Dec 9/41). If they were marked with GR- codes when first delivered then there is a possibility the codes could have been applied in serial order.

However, there is a strong possibility the GR- codes were applied later. Your photo of 41-10614 with the AAF serial number marked large on the fuselage tends to disprove that. BT-13As 41-10610 to 41-10619 (10 a/c) were also assigned new to Greenville, M.S. Surprisingly and despite the earlier AAF serial numbers, they were built later than than the above listed batches and delivered to Greenville on January 18, 1942. If 41-10614 was at one stage marked in that fuselage serial no. style then so perhaps was 41-11538.

I would urge you to invest in at least one more accident report relating to one of the Greenville BTs with an AAF serial no. very close to 41-11538. It could point to whether there is any correlation between AAF serial no. and the Field No.

One last question... Could you confirm whether or not your 41-11538 is Vultee serial no. 2548 and was registered as N52411?

Cheers, Tony


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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:18 am 
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Location: Los Angeles
Gooday all,

Some background information on the field codes for Southeast AAF Training Center for you.

There was some confusion on the part of Southeast AAF Training Center in implementing the emergency order for the now familiar radio call number after the start of the war. They confused the radio call number with the field/unit number so they applied the radio call number as the field/unit number as on the fuselage like 41-10614.

To confuse things some more I say that 437/ED on 41-10614 is the field number of some Contract Pilot School, not the old plane/unit designator for the 437th School Squadron at Greenville AAF, MS which would be something like XXX/437ED, XXX being a block of hundreds for each School Squadron on the field.

Southeast AFF Training Center clarified the issue by issuing General Orders No. 54 of May 20, 1942 which order identifying letters to it's fields with a field number, the only such General Order to come to light on in regard of field letters for any of the Z.I. AAF Commands.

Hope that's a help,

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:40 pm 
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M-62A wrote:
One last question... Could you confirm whether or not your 41-11538 is Vultee serial no. 2548 and was registered as N52411?


Correct. 41-11538 is Vultee s/n 2548 and is registered as N52411. This aircraft is currently operated by the Commemorative Air Force Minnesota Wing. The flickr album below contains a variety of recent photos of the aircraft, along with the IARC and data plate.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/85883490@N00/67L91a

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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Further research into identifying BT-13A s/n 41-11538. I found a Greenville Army Flying School document after stumbling upon Rick Prucha's website dedicated to his father's (Lou Prucha) service. Rick has a great collection here;

http://www.rgprucha.com/prucha_brennan/lou_wwii/lou_wwii_home.htm

Training classbooks are here, including the Greenville book
http://www.rgprucha.com/prucha_brennan/lou_wwii/lou_wwii_training_classbooks.htm

With the help of Mr. Allan Hammons of Greenwood, MS, we found that our BT-13A (s/n 41-11538) is represented in this classbook. Although not a photo of the aircraft, there is a photo of a data board which clearly contains '41-11538' on the board. Below are some excerpts from this book, including the image with the serial number visible.

Image
j050_19421227-19430227_basicbook_p00_frontcover
by Jordan Deters, on Flickr

Image
19421227-19430227_BasicBook_p07
by Jordan Deters, on Flickr

Image
19421227-19430227_BasicBook_p07_cropped_data_board
by Jordan Deters, on Flickr

A closeup of '41-11538';

Image
19421227-19430227_BasicBook_p07_cropped_serial_number_41-11538
by Jordan Deters, on Flickr

M-62A wrote:
I would urge you to invest in at least one more accident report relating to one of the Greenville BTs with an AAF serial no. very close to 41-11538. It could point to whether there is any correlation between AAF serial no. and the Field No.


I recently opted to acquire additional accident reports for Greenville BT-13's of serials very close to 41-11538. These included 41-11541 and 41-11545 (in addition to the report for 41-11537 previously acquired). Upon initial inspection, these reports revealed no sequential assignment of fuselage codes with respect to aircraft serial numbers. Particularly, the following codes were determined for these three aircraft.

    41-11537 - GR824
    41-11541 - GR1
    41-11545 - GR107

Accident reports for 41-11537 and 41-11545 can be viewed here;

https://flic.kr/s/aHsm7rfnKn

https://flic.kr/s/aHsm7D7Hfp

With no obvious order to fuselage codes with respect to serial numbers, I began to review my records of photographs that I have acquired. I cross referenced the serial numbers of the accident reports to my photos, only to realize the data board image (referenced above) that contains 41-11538 also contains 41-11545. After reviewing this image, I recalled a previous suggestion that the image might indeed contain reference to the fuselage codes assigned to these aircraft. On the board, above the gentleman at the typewriter's head, there is a column of "100-series" numbers. Since the numbers are sequential by line in the area visible (i.e. 108 to 118) it can be assumed that the number associated with 41-11545 on this board is 107, the same as the fuselage code shown in the accident report (GR107).

Applying this logic and carrying the 100-series number back to the line for 41-11538, this aircraft would have been assigned the code "GR104". This is the most definitive evidence I've found thus far, and seems quite compelling. I am working to acquire additional accident reports for aircraft serial numbers visible on the data board to see if their fuselage codes match the corresponding 100-series number on the board.

This has been an interesting research effort, and certainly did not expect to determine the fuselage code from a "data board" image from an ops or maintenance office. I always assumed the only way I would've found the code was via a photograph of the aircraft itself.

Lastly, I'd like to put out a request for anyone who might have access to BT-13 photographs from Greenville AAF, MS, to look for a photo of "GR104".

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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:00 pm 
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Location: Grimsby, UK
Applying this logic and carrying the 100-series number back to the line for 41-11538, this aircraft would have been assigned the code "GR104". This is the most definitive evidence I've found thus far, and seems quite compelling. I am working to acquire additional accident reports for aircraft serial numbers visible on the data board to see if their fuselage codes match the corresponding 100-series number on the board.

Well done Jordan! A successful conclusion to your quest. Thank you for the link to your Flickr album. I look forward to seeing some pics of 41-11538 marked up as "GR104".

M-62A.


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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:38 am 
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Congratulations, Jordan - that one last piece of the puzzle finally pops up. I know how you feel; just had my own little success IDing a B-17 I'd tracked for the last ten years - a gentleman had an old maintenance record that had the serial number (42-102875) and Hobbs AAF field code (H 87). Hope you can find a photo of GR104!

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Mechanic: "Flap switch checked OK. Pilot needs more P.T." - Flight report, TB-17G 42-102875 (Hobbs AAF)


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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:25 pm 
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Great thread. I don't want to cause any unwanted thread drift but since BT-13s are the Rodney Dangerfield of warbirds they don't come up very much, and I've wanted to ask this question for a while.

The BT-13 I fly has the two data tags on the roll bar behind the pilot and it has a serial number from the manufacturer but there is no typical "Bu-" number. The factory tag shows 1942 and the Army Air Force tag shows an "accepted date" but there is no 42-XXXXX to be found.

Sorry, I thought I had a picture of the tags handy when I started typing but I'll have to come back later and insert it.

Can anyone explain why this would be?

Update: I have to retract where I stated the tag shows 1942. There is no date stamp (the airworthiness certificate does show 1942).

I don't have an uploadable image from here but the U.S. Army Air Forces tag says:

Type
BT-13BVU (there is a stamp to the left with 88 in a V, inside a circle. Another stamp to the right shows AN over N108, inside a square

Serial No.
90358

Order No.
W535AC31383

Date Accepted
(blank)

I've tried searches using that order number but have not been able to produce any history.
Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:28 pm 
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AftCG,

Here is a photo of the data plates in BT-13A serial number 41-11538.

Image
20150103_134838
by Jordan Deters, on Flickr

Knowing the manufacturer serial number and contract number, one should be able to determine the USAAC serial number. I'll do some digging and see if I can help you narrow down possible serial numbers.

Jordan

Edit:

Per Jonathan Thompson's book Vultee Aircraft 1932-1947, 1,125 BT-13B's were built under contract AC-31383. Referencing John M. Andrade's book U.S. Military Aircraft Designations and Serials 1909 to 1979, 1,125 BT-13B's were built with serial numbers 42-89574 to 42-90698 and 44-31511 to 44-32160.

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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:05 am 
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aftCG wrote:

Serial No.
90358

Order No.
W535AC31383

Date Accepted
(blank)



aftCG,

M-62A made an interesting observation in a separate PM discussion. He points out that 90358 is likely the USAAC serial number, in its entirety 42-90358. Note that this serial number falls in the range of serials I previously identified. 90358 does not appear to be a valid Vultee c/n (note that 41-11538 has a c/n of 2548).

I speculate that this data plate was replaced at some point and not properly/completed populated, either due to carelessness or lack of available information.

It'd be interesting to see a photo of the data plates, similar to that I shared, in the BT you fly.

Jordan

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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Continuing the search for photos of BT-13A s/n 41-11538, I sent an inquiry to NARA regarding Greenville AAF base histories I've been going through that make numerous mention of the base Photo Section. The histories stated that in 1944 the Photo Section produced ~23,000 photos. If anyone was going to have any surviving photos, I thought it might be NARA (aside from AFHRA). The photos here are the few I received, and are the only photos in their collections that are indexed to Greenville AAF, MS. That does not mean they don't have others, these are just the ones that are indexed.

Image
342-FH-3B-46615
by Greenville Flyers, on Flickr

Image
342-FH-3B-46616
by Greenville Flyers, on Flickr

Image
342-FH-3B-46617
by Greenville Flyers, on Flickr

Image
342-FH-3B-46618
by Greenville Flyers, on Flickr

Image
342-FH-3B-46619
by Greenville Flyers, on Flickr

Image
342-FH-3B-46620
by Greenville Flyers, on Flickr

Image
342-FH-3B-46621
by Greenville Flyers, on Flickr

Image
342-FH-3B-46622
by Greenville Flyers, on Flickr

Image
342-FH-3B-46623
by Greenville Flyers, on Flickr

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Last edited by jdeters79 on Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: BT-13 s/n 41-11538
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:39 pm 
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Hey guys, have a BT-13 question. Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover mentioned in their books about BT-13s. Apparently post war at Muroc Army Airfield there was one or more BT-13’svused as hacks or general purposes like flight currency.
Has anyone ever seen pictures of these NACA/ NASA BT’s and what their paint scheme might have been?


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