Warbird Information Exchange

Hello

My name is Kornel. I am writting from Poland. I am currently building a 1/48 scale model of C-47 "Turf and Sport Special" since it was one of aircraft carrying paratroopers of 1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade to Holland during Market-Garden operation.. The plane took polish paratroopers to Holland on Sept. 21st 1944 but “Turf” was one of the machines which came back to England due bad weather and communication mistakes without dropping the men. I am currently looking for the chalk number which was applied to the plane for the polish drop. Unfortunately I did not find anything yet. Is there a chance you could help me find this chalk number ?

I am also preparing to build a model of Airspeed Horsa Mk.I glider carrying elements of polish parachute brigade to Holland. The problem is that I cannot find any information on the serial numbers that these gliders carried. All that I know is that they were towed by planes from RAF's 297 sqn and that their chalk numbers were 890-899. Do you have any knowledge in this matter ?

I would be very grateful for any help from you.

Best Wishes
Kornel Nowicki

"Turf and Sport Special" is a display aircraft at the Dover AMC Museum. I noted your inquiry on their Facebook page.

Turf's serial number is 42-92841 (292841 on the tail) Q9 (61/314)---(radio call) R.

There are several wartime photos of 841. One of the best--for your Market-Garden purposes--shows the worn and over-painted invasion stripes. That photo is also significant in that there appears to be NO TAIL NUMBER--actually it has been blotted out by the photo censor. This "error" appears in screen caps of SIM skins--showing no tail number.

There is another photo of 841 in flight showing the right side of the plane--you can clearly see the tail number 292841. What is important about this photo is that the number appears to be BLACK--actually it is RED (which means the yellow tail number on the plane displayed at Dover is wrong). Red photographs black.

841 carried members of 2/508 of the 82nd into Normandy. It's chalk number then was #19. It's position was lead plane of the second element of Serial 20. Most Serial Leads and Second element leads were equipped with SCR-717C radar characterized by the turret-like pod under the fuselage just aft of the trailing edge of the wing. None of the wartime photos available show 841 with the radar pod--However--the red tail number is unique to radar equipped planes--and 841 falls within one group of sequential tail number known to be radar equipped--42-92837 thru 42-92847. Planes within this group either served with the Pathfinders, or were Group/Squadron lead planes with PF radar and crews trained at the PF School.

Radar pods and the enclosed radar array could be removed if necessary. I merely point this all out as the clues are there. It might also suggest that when carrying the Poles into Holland she might have had her radar pod reinstalled--and may have been a lead plane on that lift.

The two best authorities on C-47 operations in Europe are my friends and colleagues Hans den Brok http://www.airbornetroopcarrier.com/aboutwebmaster.html

and Patrick Elie http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/aeropus ... p?page=s20. Patrick very likely has the combat history (microfilm) of the 314th and might have the serial number assignments for the lift you are researching.

Good Luck with your project.

BTW--My mother's grandmother was Ursula Nowicki from Wilno/Vilnius, Lithuania. Her married name was Americanized as Wistaris when she immigrated to the US (Worcester, Massachusetts) in 1906 and is often written as Veisztacas or Viestaros...do you have relatives in Lithuania?

You might try here. http://www.armyflying.com/ They have a good collection of what you are looking for.

_________________
Mike

"He's crazy Lew, he builds toy airplanes!"
- Frank Towns, "Flight of the Phoenix (the good one)

Airborne Assault, the airborne forces museum at Duxford has always been very helpful to me. It might be worthwhile contacting them for assistance

_________________
Simon King

21 SEP 1944
Serial A-86

314th TCG

61st TCS & 62nd TCS

Aircraft in Serial: 27
25 of 27 aborted due to weather and returned to base.

Unit carried: 2 Bn/1st Polish Para Bde

Drop Zone: K

Drop Time: 1716

Losses: None

Dear Pathfinder

I am really confused about this C-47 right now

1. If it comes to the AMC Museum, I contacted them but they do not have any documents relating to transport and drop of the Poles.

2. I have great doubts about the number of aircraft. AMC Museum C-47 markings and your info states that it was 42-92841 (292841 on the tail). My model kit included decal sheet and additional aftermarket decal sheet and few website sources shows Turf's number as "42-92189" (292189) on the tail.

example:
http://modelingmadness.com/others/decal ... h72015.htm

https://flyawaysimulation.com/downloads ... glas-c-47/

3. The same problem is with the code letters color. Some sources show them in white and some in yellow.

Looking at the photo below it presume they could be yellow or grey because there is a difference between the code letters color and the white invasion stripes leftovers.

http://delaware.newszap.com/csp/mediapo ... 56A92EC500

On the other hand here we can see that they are white:

http://amcmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads ... -image.jpg

4. I wrote Hans den Brok. Very kind and helpful man. He was trying to help me but the chalk numbers are very hard to find.

5. I will defninitely write Mr. Elie. Thank you.

6. As you probably know Wilno/Vilnius as well as Lwów/Lviv were polish cities before World War II. Many Poles lived there and some live there even now. From what I know, our family did not have ancestors in the Vilnius region. My great-grandparents before and during World War II lived in the Polish southern borderlands (now it's Ukrainian territory), but they had to flee from there to the central Poland after the genocidal attacks of the Ukrainian nationalists of UPA troops.
Nevertheless Nowicki is a quite popular last name here in Poland. Translated to english it would be "Newman".

7. Simon and Michael thank you for your sources.

Best Wishes
Kornel

Kornel--

Thank you for your reply. Permit me to point out a few things.

1: As a modeller myself, but more so as a forensic historian, I would NEVER use a decal sheet or box art as a primary resource for establishing historical fact...or as an historically accurate representation of a particular subject.

2: Checking historical resources (the easiest online is Baugher's serial number website) shows 42-92189 as one of a block of consecutive serial numbers that went to Russia. It is a fairly reasonable conclusion that these were transferred to USSR right off the line rather than being collected from all over the planet after the war--wrapped up in sequential tail numbers--and delivered to Russia.

3: So the conclusion has to be that 42-92189 was sent to Russia--did not serve in the ETO--the 9th AF--or the 61TCS/314TCG.

4: Given those four exclusions 42-92189 can not be "Turf".

5: Furthermore we have to conclude that the decal sheet is wrong and someone at the model company art department made a goof that has spread far and wide--like a virus--with each building and on-line photo essay of the C-47 model kit using those decals.

6: The primary written resource of C-47 lineage is the Air-Britain J.M.G. Gradidge book which also lists 189 as going to Russia. I am certain that Gradidge was the source for Baugher since the book was published in 1984--long before the internet.

7: Final conclusion: Any suggestion that Turf carried a tail number 189 (s/n 42-92189) is just flat out wrong.

Now let's take a look at the provenance of the C-47 at AMC named "Turf and Sport Special" s/n 42-92841

1: In order to visually prove that contention we must have a single photo that shows the nose art--the Squadron code Q9--The radio call R--and the tail number 292841. Unfortunately there is not one single photo that shows all four of those facts together.

2: What we do have are a sequence of photos that can be connected visually that prove to a 90% probability that Turf was 841. All of these are on the AMC site in the photo "gallery" linked to the C-47.

3: The photo you linked above with line reference "delaware" shows the C-47 left rear with radio call R and Squadron Code Q9. The nose art is not visible, and as I pointed out above the tail number has been blotted out by the photo censor. (This photo in it's original form is on the AMC site with hand written notes stating it is "841" and giving the nose art name.) On enlargement you can just see a piece of the numeral 1--and it would suggest that at some point the tail number was changed to white/yellow.

4: The next photo I would reference shows 841 sitting on the PSP ramp with the full size "stairs" leading to the door. The radio call R has been painted out but you can see the letter R on extreme magnification. Q9 has been painted out and the nose area where we would hope to see the nose art is also recently painted. What tells us that this PSP photo is the same plane as the in-flight left-side plane are the white "dots" that look like dust defects in the camera--but are actually defects on the plane. The most obvious is the P-shaped defect on the aft end of the wing root that appears on both photos. After that you can pick out the dots around the windows that similarly appear on both pictures. This prove to me that these are the same plane.

5: Now we come down to trying to find a visual proof that 841 is Turf. So far we have NOT done that.

6: The only historic photo in the AMC gallery (that we can call the "mechanic/nose art" picture) that shows the nose art does show Q9---that at least proves that Turf flew in the 61st TCS. However the radio call R and tail number are NOT visible. There are no dots/defects to connect the nose art pic to the other photos.

7: However the ONLY element that I can find that is the same between the mechanics/nose art photo and the PSP ramp photo are the parachute resupply tally marks (one full and one faded) high up on the fuselage that escaped the repainter's brush.

8: Now I would give all that about 90% of a proof that Q9 R 292841 is "Turf". Reading the AMC stories about the roll out of 841 we find that the wartime pilot and crew chief were present at the event. I feel kind of certain that if there had been an historical disconnect between what they flew as "Turf" and the plane carrying the tail number 841 they sort of would have mentioned it.

9: Adding their approval to the photographic evidence and what is displayed at AMC, I would say that the "Turf" at AMC is in fact 42-92841. (I would still direct you attention to the right side in-flight photo showing the black (red) tail number)

10: The question now becomes "What is the provenance that 841 carried Poles to Arnhem?" We know that the mission departed England, but as pointed out above 25 of 27 planes sortied on the 21st turned back. Are you suggesting that 841 was one of the two planes that joined another serial and dropped their troops at Arnhem? The AMC bio does not mention the sortie of the 21st. Right now none of those questions can be answered with any authority.

11: I would suggest that "Turf and Sport Special" did sortie on 21SEP44 with members of 2Bn 1st Ind Polish Brigade, and was one of 25 a/c that aborted due to weather.

With Respect,

Dave,
Your depth of knowledge regarding these matters never ceases to amaze me.
I am in awe! I hope you have written all this down because you ain't gonna be around
forever.

Call me,
Owen

Dear Dave

Your knowledge is really impressing and I am very glad I can discuss my doubts with you. Please do not misunderstand me. Since I am a modeller and a historian for over 20 year now, and was a polish parachute brigade reenactor for a certain time, I don't treat decal sheet leaflet as a resource but as a thing that made me confused about the whole matter.

I did not have a chance to check Mr Gradidge studies about C-47. It is hard to find good literature about this plane in Poland. For some seriously sick reason german planes such as Bf-109, Ju-88 and Fw-190 are much more popular here than allied ones. For over 40 year of communism there were many (good and bad) publications concerning soviet military equipment and since 1990s german planes are mostly studied.

Your answers made the whole case a lot more clear but I still cannot tell for sure which color of code letters I should use (white or yellow).

If it comes to the prove that "Turf" carried Poles to Arnhem, on AMC's I found an account of an aerial engineer and crew chief of the plane:

http://amcmuseum.org/history/operation-market-garden/


Best Wishes
Kornel

Kornel--

Does the model you are doing have to be Turf? Because of the availability of the decals? Or are you open to other options that did carry Poles into Holland?

If the latter, you might take a look at the three C-47s that were lost out of the 315th TCG (310 TCS) on 21SEP44. The MACR's (Missing Aircrew Reports) have details of the nose art names (2 of 3) the American air crew and all three have the loading manifests with the names and ranks of all the 2Bn/1PPB parachutists who were on board.

These MACRs are at Fold3.com. The planes for the 310 TCS were nose code 4A:

42-93029 9/21/1944 MACR 10135 315 TCG 310 TCS C-47 "Eileen"
43-15339 9/21/1944 MACR 10026 315 TCG 310 TCS C-47
43-15612 9/21/1944 MACR 10264 315 TCG 310 TCS C-47 "Sea-Ration"

The 315th/310 TCS has a website: http://www.315group.org/310.htm
And there is a printed history: http://www.315group.org/book.htm

Dave

The thing is Turf would be the best because of the decals availability (ofcourse numbers need to be changed using painting masks) and photo material showing the nice effect of re-painted invasion stripes. The Nose-Art is not so important in this project.

If I had some nice photos of a specific plane from one TCG's that carried polish drop (especially with chalk number on it), I could try to order some custom decals.

Best Wishes
Kornel

Kornel--

I am glad that Turf is not the priority based on it's being a display aircraft. Now you have the opportunity to explore other aircraft representing the Polish drop.

Looking at the MACRs for the above planes I thought that you might pick one and do what we call a "micro-history"--that is finding out literally everything you can about the people, the plane, and fate of each. Then your simple model build expands well beyond the problem of the proper color of nose codes--and enters the world of a lifetime project.

Just for an exercise I picked 43-15339 is the group of 310/315 planes above. First because it did not have a nose art name. Second because--although it was shot down--it delivered all of it's paratroops to the DZ and the crew survived. The pilot was POW and the other four wound up with the 82nd Airborne.

I put 43-15339 in a google search and found it mentioned in a book called Wrong Side of the River.

https://books.google.com/books?id=wOoAA ... 39&f=false

Written in 2010 from what was available in the preview it is incredibly detailed. It turns out that the personnel on 339 were from the Engineer Company and the Chalk numbers of the three plane flight carrying this one platoon were 41-42-43.

Since the whole book is about the Engineer Company you have one hell of a reference. Add to that the names on the loading manifest in the MACR and you have enough leads to last a lifetime of research. For the yanks reading this the Engineer Company was the unit who, over two nights, ferried members of the Polish Brigade across the Rhine in rubber boats as depicted in "A Bridge Too Far".

Check your PM box above and we can continue our conversation without boring the other readers here on WIX.

Pathfinder,

Not boring at all. Very interesting info on a subject that doesn't get much attention compared to the fighter and bomber missions.

Mac

_________________
WWII Naval Aviation Research - Pacific
https://www.ww2nar-pac.com/

Thank you, Jim.

Kornel advised me that we would revisit this topic next week when he returns from a business trip. It appears to me that the fellow who wrote the 30-odd page book had access to a ton of very unit-specific wartime material, just based on what appears in the Google-tease.

Not to hijack the thread, but I have often wondered if there was an avid WIX-Researcher in Japan who might have the time and interest to investigate the possibility of a newsprint archive in Japan--or Tokyo--which might shed light on the story (first floated by Ted Lawson) that sections of the Ruptured Duck were displayed in Tokyo after the plane was recovered in China and then supposedly displayed in the city for propaganda purposes. One would think that such a thing would be covered in the media.

Dave, great! great! stuff. Please continue. BTW I've found some very interesting (what I believe to be) D-Day / Market Garden photos here.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 069&type=3

and here ...

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 069&type=3

_________________
[Thread title is ridiculous btw]