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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:52 am 
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TJJ:

Good Day!

1. I agree, with the FAEC tail code on Dec '58 but the cabin ID plate remains the same. I have a feeling that this sample is still around.

2. Sorry meant (SOF) Mag vs SAF0. The latest SAFO folks (Small AF Observer) may have some details also. SOF = Soldier of Fortune Mag.

3. Mr. Hudicourt came close to finding for us the S/N of the bare B-26 but he claims that he ran out of film for a close-up of the nose id plate. Yess it's still in place. I have that ID plate in my agenda c. 2016 or so. I've seen both photos of the FAR B-26 933/937 & they seem to be the same plane. I'll try to get into that cockpit also in c. 2016.

4. How did the Cubans bring back the FAP B-26?? Do you know?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:16 pm 
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[quote="fah619"]TJJ:

3. Mr. Hudicourt came close to finding for us the S/N of the bare B-26 but he claims that he ran out of film for a close-up of the nose id plate.

Interesting that we both ran out of film at the same point.....


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:25 pm 
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Mr.E

Hi! Sorry for the mixed-up. Do you remember seeing an id plate on the B-26 nose ground sample??


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:26 pm 
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fah619 wrote:
Mr.E

Hi! Sorry for the mixed-up. Do you remember seeing an id plate on the B-26 nose ground sample??


Sorry - As I said it was a very quick 15 min tour with a bus of SAGA tourists waiting on me!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:14 am 
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fah619 wrote:
TJJ:

Good Day!

1. I agree, with the FAEC tail code on Dec '58 but the cabin ID plate remains the same. I have a feeling that this sample is still around.

Bearing in mind that the relations between Cuba and the US didn't fall to pieces the very moment Batista fled, how do we know that the B-26 wasn't returned to Cuba during the short- lived Urrutia government?

fah619 wrote:
4. How did the Cubans bring back the FAP B-26?? Do you know?

No info on that. But with the sheer number of Cuban troops in Angola, transport by boat would seem the most likely. All those Cubans would have needed massive logistics support.

T J

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:27 am 
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TJJ:

Good day!

Understood! However, I think we're talking about 2 diff time-lines. While there were numerous Cubans in Angola none of 'em were concerned at the end of the war c.'75 about bringing back to Cuba a Portuguese B-26 sample. It would have taken a massive logistic support just to take it apart & on a ship.

There are still some photos on www about the 5-6 samples abandoned by FAP at Luanda. Maybe we'll see more to compare some notes. The sample below still exhibits its id plate at the nose & it appears to be Cuban sample B-26C.


Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:47 am 
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fah619 wrote:
TJJ:

Good day!

Understood! However, I think we're talking about 2 diff time-lines. While there were numerous Cubans in Angola none of 'em were concerned at the end of the war c.'75 about bringing back to Cuba a Portuguese B-26 sample. It would have taken a massive logistic support just to take it apart & on a ship.

I'm not putting in a restrictive time- line here. The Cuban involvement in Angola lasted until 1991. We don't even have an exact date for when the B-26 first appeared on display in Havana. If we can take any stock in what Wikipedia says, the museum was established in 1986. In any case we have a time- line of 15 years for the 26 to vacate Angola. The remaining FAP Invaders were at some stage moved some 20 miles from the airport through the city to a desolate area of desert and bushes near the ocean southwest of Luanda. They must have been dismantled for that journey. If you can take them apart and move them that far, getting one 4 miles up the road to the harbor is a piece of cake. We see warbirds, and vintage aircraft wrecks big and small being dismantled and shipped worldwide every year, and by private individuals that is. So to say that the Cuban military helped by the Angolan locals couldn't handle it is just preposterous.

fah619 wrote:
There are still some photos on www about the 5-6 samples abandoned by FAP at Luanda. Maybe we'll see more to compare some notes. The sample below still exhibits its id plate at the nose & it appears to be Cuban sample B-26C.

Image

The thing though, is that that is a B-26B nose, not a C nose.

T J

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:30 pm 
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TJJ:

I agree! ..& most likely coming fm one of the fake FAR B-26 samples of Apr '61.

p.s I also agree that there was plenty of manpower in Luanda, Angola to disassemble a B-26 to ship parts anywhere in the world.

I sure like to see some pics of this logistic ops. This is not to imply that such operation took place. There is a FAP history website with some photos of 'em. I'll see what they have to say about the disposition of the B-26 fuselages after the war.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:59 am 
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fah619 wrote:
T. J Johansen:

Good Day!

No, I'm not saying the previous. What I'm saying based on photo evidence is this:

1. The 1st & real FAR 933 defected to the US c. Dec 1958. (Clear nose). Whereabouts/fate ukn for now. I sure like to know.

2. The 2nd & fake FAR 933 defected c. April '61 (solid nose).This one came back at night to Pto Cabezas fm Miami, but the suspected sample crashed & it was later found NNE in the jungles of Nicaragua. According to a SAFO article c. 2003.

3. The most likely sample in Havana is FAR 937 since it was shot down by accident/friendly fire nearby. c. April 61. It's odd to see a FAR 933 surfaced again at the Havana museum c. 1998 or so. Someone came up with the wrong FAR Reg.

p.s As far as the sample being brought back to Cuba fm Angola...for what purpose?? There were plenty of derelict B-26s all over the island by that time. If someone can comes up with some pics of the logistics across the pond then that would be another story. It's also unlikely that the sample came fm the left over FAN stock left behind after 1961 as mentioned here. We'll see.. we'll keep digging.


Not all correct.

The real FAEC 933 defected to the US in Dec 58. I imagine that it was later returned to its rightful owner, the Cuban Air Force, although I have read nothing to that effect. There was a government change in Cuba less than a month after the defect and the US initially had diplomatic relations with the new government, to which it even sold some aircraft, until relations were severed in Jan 61.

The Brigade 933 that landed in Miami on April 15 1961 had a fake number painted on it and was an Ex US Military B-26B. However, because the CIA wanted to make it appear as though the Brigade B-26s were defecting Cuban Air Force (FAR) B-26s, they were all painted as FAR B-26s with the numbers of real FAR-26s painted on them. However, because the Brigade Operated more B-26s than the Cuban Air Force did at the time, and to make it appear as though less Brigade B-26s were involved than there actually were (the Brigade initially had had about 17 aircraft, and 8 more were delivered on April 17 and April 18, although not all saw action), several Brigade B-26s shared the same registration. The B-26 that landed in Miami on April 15 and the one that landed at Boca Chica NAS in Key West on that same day were both registered "933", which is why the press was never granted access to the Key West one. The one that crashed in Nicaragua and whose wreck was found later that year, was the Key West one. I suspect that the one that landed in Miami was never returned to the Brigade, to make believe it had been impounded in case journalists asked for its whereabouts. Several Brigade B-26s also landed in Grand Cayman on April 15 and 17, and at least two of those also shared the same registration, as reported by Jack Rose, the British administrator of the time, who happened to be a decorated WW-II Hurricane and Typhoon pilot.

The complete B-26 that was in the Museo del Aire was brought back from Angola. I talked to a Cuban who was involved in shipping it back to Cuba, around 1978 or 1979. In those years, there were no longer any complete FAR B-26s in Cuba, except the one at San Antonio Air Base, which is 931 according the the same person. He used to fly in these aircraft. He was a Cuban MIG technician who had begun his air force career, as a FAR B-26 tail gunner between 1959 and 1961. He further stated that he also sent an AT-6 from Angola. He thinks that the B-26 fuselage and nose section are from real FAR B-26s, brought over from San Antonio.

Jacques Lagas, who flew for the FAR in 1959-1961, wrote a book called Memorias de un capitán rebelde (http://www.amazon.com/Memorias-capit%C3 ... B00525GKQG) where he stated that his personal aircraft was a FAR 937, which, unlike all other FAR B-26s, had six nose guns and no turrets and could not drop bombs or fire rockets. I suspect that this is why the Portuguese B-26 was painted as "937", because it was the FAR B-26 is was most similar to. Lagas further stated that 937 was an aircraft he had painstakingly rebuilt from an aircraft which was low time, which had never flown since it was imported from the North, and that had been used for parts.

My source in Cuba, told me however, that the FAR had a few kits that allowed them to replace the Plexiglas nose of B-26C bombers with a metal nose with six guns. He showed me an old picture of 931 when it still had the Plexiglas nose but stated that the aircraft presently at San Antonio, despite its hard nose with 6 .50 Cal, is 931. Such aircraft can be recognized by the fact that they still have turrets and the under wing gun pods, which is the case of the San Antonio B-26.

I did not run out of film to get pictures of the B-26s. When I went back to Havana the Museo del Aire had closed and the "937" had vanished, and I was unable to get permission to access the San Antonio B-26 which is located inside the San Antonio Air base, especially not with my camera in hand.


Last edited by Hudicourt on Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:42 pm 
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Perhaps someone can enlighten me but based on quite a bit of research on the Invader, it was my understanding that the interchangeable nose sections on the B-26 only had a manufacturer's part number on it?? What clues to airframe ID are contained on a detached nose section? And a B-26B with a clear nose is still a B-26B as far as the aircraft records go, even though it is identical in appearance to a B-26C. I don't envy you guys trying to sort out aircraft identification on these airplanes when there were a whole bunch of people whose only job was to make it impossible to trace aircraft IDs. Good luck but I read on with interest.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:00 pm 
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Hudicourt:

Hi! Interesting stories indeed!!

Do you have any pics of some of these samples?? Including the Cayman Islands unscheduled landings?? Tks in advance.


p.s Who was the name of the pilot that landed at Key West, (Boca Chica) on April 1961.. do you know??


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:13 pm 
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Are there any photos readily available of the B-26 at San Antonio?

T J

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:08 pm 
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B-26 Folks:

...may we start fm the beginning: FAR 933 at Museo del Aire, S. of Havana c. 1990s. Below the R/wing a poss Sea Fury Centaurus engine. c. 1990s. Photo via AEC.

Image


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:15 am 
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T J Johansen wrote:
Are there any photos readily available of the B-26 at San Antonio?
T J


I have two bad ones.

This one, which is no more than 2 to 4 years old. It is group of FAR Giron veterans, who get together every year at this location on April 17th. This is the 2013 reunion I think.

Image

and this one which is quite old, but of General Enrique Carreras standing in front of the same aircraft at the same location:

Image


Last edited by Hudicourt on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:30 am 
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Aerovin:

Good Day!



Interesting question! The solid nose sections that I've seen have a "Douglas" ID plate with AAF S/N on it & it says B-26. Nose sections chg a bit so they may have a diff AAF S/N on it than the cockpit ID. Sorry, I have not seen in close-up pics of the clear nose details. But I'm sure they're there in the frame somewhere. Perhaps someone will come up with a pic of it. I'm sure...I'd like to see some of those also for ref purposes.


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