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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Warbird Digest
Final Cut-The Post War B-17 Flying Fortress and Survivors - 5th Edition


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:35 am 
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One wheel brake failure plus a strong crosswind appears to be suspected... bummer to see this ship beat up like this, but very glad the pilot Frank Parker is perfectly ok.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/news/67607269/ww2-fighters-brake-fails-during-landing-at-omaka-aerodrome


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:47 am 
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Ouch!
I echo your sentiments exactly Imritger.
Hate to see the bent metal but if the pilot is O.K. then that's what truly matters.


Andy


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:49 am 
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From the article...

"Focke Wulfs have a tail dragger instead of a wheel at the back of the plane which made it difficult to control in strong winds, Wilson said."

I don't mean to be persnickety, but isn't that a wheel hanging at the back of that airplane in their picture?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:50 am 
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The "Flugwerk Faktor" strikes again. :(

I'm beginning to grasp why the Germans called it the Butcher Bird, as it sure seems to butcher the pilot's best attempts at a decent landing.

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab48 ... ndloop.jpg

http://weaponsman.com/wp-content/upload ... o-park.png

http://www.dorst-freiburg.de/BilderStre ... AZZJ_7.jpg

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:38 am 
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Dan, correlation does not always equal causation, and I wouldn't say this kind of incident would be limited to the FlugWerk aircraft. The Collings P-40B got stuffed up pretty good last year thanks to a ground loop as well, and I seem to recall one or two P-51s running into the same issue. It just draws more attention because of the relative rarity of the type, I think.

Cheers,

Lynn


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:14 am 
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lmritger wrote:
Dan, correlation does not always equal causation, and I wouldn't say this kind of incident would be limited to the FlugWerk aircraft. The Collings P-40B got stuffed up pretty good last year thanks to a ground loop as well, and I seem to recall one or two P-51s running into the same issue. It just draws more attention because of the relative rarity of the type, I think.

Cheers,

Lynn




Lynn,

Rarity of type has nothing to do with my perception; the number of incidents per operational hour of each type does.

Lynn, would you not agree with me that the wide track of the Butcher Bird's landing gear negates comparison with an early P-40 (Spitfire/Buchon/FM-2, etc)? Based on the comparatively-wide dimensions of the landing gear, groundlooping should be a comparatively-rare occurence for the Butcher Bird (Wasn't this the common observation of Jaegerfliegern during WWII?). About half of the operational examples of the type have now suffered a similar incident. Something in the gear's structure/design must be suspect.

Using your FW-190 vs. P-51 premise, the P-51 community would be suffering more like 20-30 groundloops per year...perhaps more (that is--admittedly--a VERY ROUGH estimate concerning operational hours per type).

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:34 am 
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Let's see: rudder size/authority, fuselage side area, gear spacing, tire type/pressure, maintenance practices, power setting/torque/p-factor, aileron adverse yaw, CG, pilot technique, pavement type & friction coeficient, original landing type/speed/bounce, etc, and I'm sure the experts could add 20 more factors that could either contribute to or help prevent a ground loop.

Darn shame to see - I'm sure the pilot was doing the best he/she knew how. Just glad no one was injured.

Ken


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:42 pm 
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Neither the Germans or the Allies called the 190 'Butcher Bird,' it is a post war 'coinage'

Damage is apparently not as bad as it looked and the boys at JEM aviation should have it back to full health by the 2017 air show depending on funding. Frank will be back in action today behind the wheel of his P-40.

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Last edited by DaveM2 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:08 pm 
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Sorry to see this, but I'm sure the JEM team will have it back in the air soon, at least Frank Parker walked away!

As for ground looping tendencies, remember, it's nothing to do how wide the track of the undercarriage is, it's the distance of the CoG from it that causes these tendencies, as in the case of BF109, and the Harvard (which both tailwheel locks, or steering on the later Harvards/T6s, to aid with their directional control problems on the ground)

The 190 also has a tailwheel lock, (engaged when the stick is fully aft).

Cheers

Paul


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:28 pm 
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DaveM2 wrote:
Niether the Germans or the Allies called the 190 'Butcher Bird,' it is a post war 'coinage'.

German "Würger”
English "Shrike" AKA "Butcher Bird" (see below)

Quote:
“Shrikes are known for their habit of catching insects and small vertebrates and impaling their bodies on thorns. This helps them to tear the flesh into smaller, more conveniently sized fragments, and serves as a cache so that the shrike can return to the uneaten portions at a later time.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:40 pm 
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There was no 'AKA..ing' back during the war, so the term "Butcher Bird" was probably not thrown around back then. And if you think I know what I'm talking about I've got a great deal on a good horse to sell ya.

pop2

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:47 pm 
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Mark Allen M wrote:
There was no 'AKA..ing' back during the war

Not much more of a stretch than calling a Medium Tank M4 Sherman (US term) "General Sherman" (British), "tommycooker" (German) or "Emcha or Ч" (Russian)

Kurt Tank calls the FW190 “wurger” – the English translation is shrike, which is also known as a butcher bird. A bit like referring to a Japanese A6M Type 0 Carrier Fighter.

零式艦上戦闘機
Rei shiki Kanjō sentōki
Rei-sen
Reisen Kanjikisen
Reisen

Zero-sen
Zeke
or variations like
Zeke 32
Hap
Hamp
Rufe

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:09 pm 
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Milmart Militaria wrote:
A bit like referring to a Japanese A6M Type 0 Carrier Fighter.

You missed a couple on your list, as my dad and his VF mates chased one or two way back when and had a few other choice referrals of their own, but best I refrain from posting them here. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:14 pm 
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Mark Allen M wrote:
a few other choice referrals of their own, :wink:


He couldn't concentrate on studies
His mind was always in the sky.
When he grew up,
He left his buddies
And Johnny learned how to fly.

Now they still call him Johnny Zero
And all the pilots proudly say
Johnny Got a zero. He got another Zero.
Johnny Got a Zero. Hooray.
Johnny Zero is a hero, today

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:46 pm 
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Here's a little audio for you chief
Image
Used it as a sing-along back in the day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BqZxt8xpbw

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