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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 3:36 pm 
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Info from a link within Roger Cains link

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We first learned this was likely to happen in September and contacted Boeing ,American Helicopter Society,American Helicopter Society etc.but no one seemed interested.We understand the HLH had to be moved/scrapped by mid October because there was a a 50th Anniversary Celebration of Fort Rucker taking place with the top brass and the airframe was in poor display condition.The museum tried to find a way to move it but ran out of time and handed it back to the Centre of Military History in Washington.They took the decision to scrap it.Since then we have been trying to find out where the scrap went in the hope of recovering a piece to put with a manufacturer\\\'s model we have here on display.If anyone can help ,or lives in the Fort Rucker area and wants to play detective ,please contact us.
11/19/2005
Elfan ap Rees
office@helimuseum.fsnet.co.uk
Weston super Mare ,Somerset, UK


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 4:13 pm 
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This is an instance of a part of history that was destroyed by the very people that are supposed to save it for future generations. I'm sure there are still airframes (or parts) that exist on military installations with uncertain fates. An example that comes to mind are the instructional airframes that were at Indian Head NOS to train E.O.D. students. The school consolidated its activity to Eglin AFB a few years back. I wonder what happened to the aircraft. I saw some aerial images on global explorer from 2003 and it looked like some A/C were still there.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:31 pm 
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What did the Army violate? It wasn't an aircraft, it wasn't a war relic. It wasn't anything more than a partial mockup.

I'm all for salvaging historical objects, but this doesn't meet the definition, and I'm glad that my tax dollars weren't being wasted for infinity.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:59 pm 
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I also think he forgets that it is general aviation who keep places like his alive. It is "general aviation" pilots who put their money and lives on the line to fly the artifacts at every single airshow across this country. We are general aviation and warbird pilots. Who would attend an airshow for just the Tbirds or B/A? Of course they are a draw, but without the general aviation men and women who support,plan and fly these shows the crowds would be nil.


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 Post subject: 501c3 and donations
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:21 am 
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I think there is some misunderstanding of just what 501c3 is here. It is a tax code that allows charitable donations, whether they be cash or property to be tax deductable, nothing more. The donee is restricted from selling an item within two years of its donation for a value less than what the donor claimed on his taxes. If it does then the donor becomes responsible for repaying the IRS for the deduction they took. After that there are no restrictions on what a donee does with the donated property. Most American museum collections policies that I've seen specifically forbid the return of items to the original donor to avoid the appearance that they were helping the donor to avoid paying their taxes. If someone can find something in the law that says otherwise then every museum in the country is violating it every day. Also government operated museums do not fall under 501c3 in the first place because everything in their collection is owned by the government. Many of them do have a seperate non-profit fund raising foundation, but that has nothing to do with the management of the collection. In the case of the DOD operated aviation museums aircraft are assigned to them not donated.

The code of ethics accepted by the International Council of Museums allows museums to deaccession (remove from collection) items by sale, trade, redonation or destruction. There is a presumption that museums will try to trade, give away, or sell an item before destroying it, but they don't have to. Things are usually destroyed only when the other options have failed. Nobody here knows what steps the Ft. Rucker museum took before deciding to destroy the helicopter. I seriously doubt that it was a decision made in haste or with any enthusiasim. While it might have been a mistake, and I personally think it was, they didn't break any laws or ethical codes.

James


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:16 am 
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This isn't so much a 501(c)3 issue as it is a GSA/government property issue. The item is government property the disposal of govt property must follow certain rules that are already in place. Theoretically the owning agency should declare the property as excess to their needs and the item would pass into the DRMO system for reallocation to another public entity or to an approved 501(c)3 entity.

For instance, the army owns a tank, they decide that its future use should be as a target on a range, the tank is blown up and destroyed on the range. At this point someone decides that it no longer serves this purpose they can't just send it to the nearest junkyard. It might be cleaned up through a bid process for a range cleaning contract or it might be moved to the nearest DRMO depot and listed as tank, HX resdue. Even though it doesn't look like a tank anymore it still must go through the process and give other agencies that might want it a chance to get it, then it goes into the donation cycle for reutilization and finally it goes into the bid process to the general public through the contractors disposal site.

Bottom line is that the helicopter whatsit will probably end up at the Rucker DRMO yard as residue or on the fire pit. If they didn't follow the property rules they could be in violation for destroying government property.

Is the Army museum set up like the NMUSAF and NMNA ? Are they publicly funded with a mirror foundation that actually raises additional funding? Could make a big difference in how they could legally dispose of any items.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:41 pm 
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Here's another press release:

FMI: www.armyavnmuseum.org

Sun, 20 Nov '05

Army Museum Had To Let It Go -- And It Was Not All It Seemed
Working for Aero-News, we learn about something new every day. But every
once in a while you learn about something that you just can't get your skull
around, and one example is shown in this photograph from a rotorcraft fan
website:

This picture tells a clean and simple story: one of the US Army's museums is
destroying one of its exhibits, a priceless, unique prototype helicopter.
The text usually circulated with the picture advances that story. But, as it
turns out, that story is clean, simple
-- and false.
When I mentioned this picture to Editor-in-Chief Jim Campbell, Jim
remembered that he'd gotten a similar photo in email recently. The picture
is ricocheting around the net -- especially the Army aviation community --
from email to blog to website.
The aircraft that's losing an argument with a construction loader is the
Boeing XCH-62, the prototype of the largest helicopter ever built outside of
Russia. It looks a lot like a Chinook, but looks are deceptive -- it's
between once-and-a-half and twice the size; you can almost park a Hook under
it, as the second photo shows.
Or, "could" almost park a Hook under it. Because the only prototype of the
Boeing design for the Heavy Lift Helicopter program of the early seventies,
is gone now. "Destroyed by a goon in a payloader," one Ft Rucker soldier
told me, fuming.
But as it happens, what appears to be an act of wanton destruction is a lot
more complicated that it seems. I contacted the Army Aviation Museum, at Ft
Rucker, Alabama, one of a plethora of installation and specialty museums
that the Army's Center for Military History, with a lot of alarmed
questions. Either my questions, or my tone, or the way this controversy has
exploded across the internet brought a reply from museum Curator R. Steven
Maxham with very un-helicopter-like speed.

The poor fellow has been taking a beating on the net from people who don't
even know him, and what's more, don't know the machine at issue. XCH-62
Serial Number 73-22012, built by Boeing-Vertol in Philadelphia and destroyed
by a goon in a payloader thirty years later, turns out to have been
something less than a real helicopter.
"[I]t was never an aircraft," Steve Maxham says. "It never flew. It was
essentially an incomplete concept model, the shell of an idea. It was never
structurally completed. It was never mechanically completed. It was never
electrically harnessed. There was only one rotor head produced, the second
was not. There were only blades made for the one head. There were no drive
train components. The upper structures both fore and aft were never
manufactured. The interior was never completed. In no way, shape, or form
did it qualify as an aircraft, historic or otherwise."
Yow! Do you get the feeling that Steve Maxham is just a little bit ticked at
people who come riding in to save the CH-62, now that it's dead and gone?
But certainly, there was some historical value in it... why not save what
they had?
"The very scarce funding available to this museum for collection management
concerns is much better suited to the preservation and conservation of any
one the many technologically significant and unique aircraft that we do
maintain here. These are items that were completed, were tested, and that
have a tangible value to lessons learned in the development of rotor wing
technology."
It turns out that the museum has the real, original prototypes of just about
every historic Army aircraft. "At the end of any contract development the
Army takes possession of the prototypes they paid for," Maxham explained to
Aero-News. "This was the case with the OH6, the NOTAR, the YUH60, the YAH64,
the 61, the 63..." The museum includes other rarities and one-offs, like the
Boeing 347, a Chinook with fly-by-wire controls, retractable gear and wings
(yes, wings). It has a Lockheed YAH-56A Cheyenne on display (and another in
storage), another high-tech victim of the 1970s budget crunch. And Maxham
promises they're not going anywhere.
"There is no, repeat no intention to divest the collection of any of the
true aircraft we have, to include the 347 that you inquired about."
One important reason to preserve these prototypes is that the test pilots
come to visit them -- and long after the test pilots are gone, the test
pilots' descendants will. But no test pilot ever pulled pitch on the XCH-62
(although the internet reverberates with the complaints of project engineers
who worked on the ill-fated program).

The XCH-62 was intended to be the next-generation Heavy Lift Helicopter,
replacing the obsolete Sikorsky CH-54 Tarhe ("Skycrane", in it's S-64
civilian guise). The -62 combined concepts from other aerial cranes, like
the CH-54 (for example, it had a rearward-facing pilot station, which was
tested on the above mentioned Boeing 347), with technology from the proven
CH-47 Chinook, with new concepts like its four-bladed rotors. But the Army
had little love for one-task, special-purpose heavy lift helicopters and in
the post-Vietnam budget-slashing frenzy, the unfinished CH-62 prototype was
axed in 1973. True believers at Boeing Vertol's Philadelphia plant pushed
the unfinished machine between a massive hangar and outdoor storage over the
years as the company fought Washington to reinstate the project.
In the military expansion of the early Reagan years, the project was briefly
revitalized, only to be killed again in 1985 -- this time, for good. The
machine was gussied up as a mockup and delivered to the museum after that
(they must have used a railroad to deliver the massive fuselage). There was
no question of storing the mockup indoors, and yet it hadn't been built to
last.

And the XCH-62 wasn't the only exhibit to suffer the rains and hail of Ft
Rucker's LA (Lower Alabama) location. Outdoor storage, and primitive indoor
storage in decrepit World War II "temporary" buildings, had left much of the
museum's collection at risk. It's not that Maxham and his fellow curators
are unaware of the damage being done to their collection, or how to stop it.
It's that their museums belong to the Army, which in peace and in war has
many priorities higher than preserving its museum collections -- and in our
society, remember, the Army doesn't get to set its spending priorities. The
Congress does that -- need I say more?
So the seasons came, and the XCH-62 deteriorated. "While there are some in
the general aviation history community who will see this as a loss, it has
in fact been at a loss for many years now, and could easily be categorized
as an accident waiting to happen. The very simple matter of corrosion in the
skin and frame due to unprotected exposure to 20+ years of the elements
prohibited any real consideration for removal to another site," Maxham told
us in a passionate email.
So the writing was on the wall for 73-22012 and its strange conglomeration
of aircraft parts and plywood. It would have taken an absolute fortune to
save the mockup by 2005 -- and if anybody gave Steve Maxham and his comrades
in the Center for Military History's museum network an absolute fortune for
the Army Aviation Museum, they had far higher priorities. The only thing
left was to get a small budget to tear the gigantic mockup down, before it
fell on a sixth-grade class touring the museum.
The museum still has the history of the abortive HLH program on file. "We
have archived several linear feet of vertical file material that track the
project up to cancellation. That material will be retained as historical
documentation. That, moreso than an incomplete concept model, will be
sufficient to assist in the story of heavy lift." After all, the museum has
the real heavy-lift helicopters of the Army, showing how the practice
evolved, from the use of utility helicopters like the CH-21 and CH-34, to
the first real brawny lifting machine, the twin-radial CH-37 Mojave, through
the CH-54 -- the last helicopter to bear Igor Sikorsky's own hand in the
design -- to the CH-47, used today in the role.
Except where it can't, and we have to hire Russians to come with an Mi-26.
Which, apart from the embarrassment of it, certainly cost less than
finishing and fielding the CH-62 would have done.
And, in a victory not of a moment, but of a decade, Maxham writes that most
of his at-risk unique and irreplaceable aircraft are out of the weather.
"[O]ver the past 10 years we have managed to secure these examples in
covered storage, where many were in the elements prior to that, and we have
also managed to obtain newer and better storage facilities than the obsolete
WWII vintage wooden structures that had been museum storage since the
1970's," he says.

So there you have it-- the whole complex tale of the CH-62, with all its
twists and turns. The tagline of the Army Aviation Museum at Fort Rucker is "Preserving the past... for the future." Sometimes doing that means that the curators have to make hard choices. The Museum must, like everybody, live within its means. The deterioration of the mockup was making it a hazard. It would have cost a fortune to make safe, and to make more representative of the real XCH-62 that was planned
but never completed. The machine at the Museum was a mockup, remember, made from some aircraft parts and some Hollywood parts, of a concept that never flew.

With a collection of truly historic, once-flying aircraft that were
outdoors, crying out for preservation, something had to give. The curators were unanimous: preserve real history, not a visually striking mock-up. The Army Center for Military History concurred.
The XCH-62 was a powerful sight, unique, and in a way, historic; but its
claims lose out compared to some of the other aircraft the museum has to preserve. I suppose I'm one of the unrealistic purists, for I truly hated to see it go; but there's a lot more to the story than first meets the eye.

FMI: www.armyavnmuseum.org

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www.sfahistory.org
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Stearman/


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:19 pm 
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Col. Rohr wrote:
skymstr02 wrote:
What did the Army violate? It wasn't an aircraft, it wasn't a war relic. It wasn't anything more than a partial mockup.

I'm all for salvaging historical objects, but this doesn't meet the definition, and I'm glad that my tax dollars weren't being wasted for infinity.


Skymaster,

What they violated was the 501c3 Status which states that any Donated Item that is no longer need must be given back to the donate in this case it should have gone back to the GAO who would have put it up for assignment to another gov. 501c3 Musuem.

Second it wasn't a mock-up shell as the Director is stating accourding to Boeing when they gave it to Ft.Ruckers it was in semi-aiorworthy status this was fare from a Mock-Up Model it was a test bed. As for his statement I find it very dishearting to see that we have Morons who control are National Aviation History.

RER


Sorry, but you are wrong on this issue. If you think that you are right, just grab your checkbook and head on down to south Alabama, go to the DRMO and place a bid on the remnents. In this business, "Money talks and bullcrap walks". I don't know where you got your information about the status of the project, but you need to check on the validity of that intel. I've been to Ft Rucker, and saw the mockup. It was interesting, but nothing more than what you see in the movies like "Stealth", "Firefox", and "Star Wars". I got more emotional about the aircraft residue behind the hangars at Chino, than this.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:41 pm 
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I wonder why they didn't try and sell it on Ebay... ? At least this would have given them a chance to earn some capital for the museum, give folks a chance to preserve something that apparently some folks thought was worth preserving, and if some deadbeat bidder had bid on it, they still might've gotten some money off of it. Don't tell me that the Gov. couldn't sue for breach of contract if someone didn't pay-up on the auction. :wink: :lol:

Seems to me that the real problem here was a lack of imagination! :snipe:

Ryan

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:21 am 
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Quote:
The very simple matter of corrosion in the skin and frame due to unprotected exposure to 20+ years of the elements prohibited any real consideration for removal to another site," Maxham told us in a passionate email.


This is the bottom line as to why they did not auction the hulk or try to have another group take it.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:16 am 
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There are set proceedures on the disposal, and ebay is not an option.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:20 pm 
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Ryan, refer back to my earlier post. It might explain why Ebay is not a viable option as Skymaster pointed out.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:54 pm 
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I'm sure you guys are right, but I was thinking that some comment was needed to break the tension. I don't know what to think personally about the helicopter, but hey, people can come up with all kinds of crazy ideas to do with stuff. Seems it could have come to some better conclusion if all the people upset now had been given a chance to do something about it.

Ryan

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Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.


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 Post subject: No Vibes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:43 am 
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RyanShort1 wrote:
I'm sure you guys are right, but I was thinking that some comment was needed to break the tension. I don't know what to think personally about the helicopter, but hey, people can come up with all kinds of crazy ideas to do with stuff. Seems it could have come to some better conclusion if all the people upset now had been given a chance to do something about it.

Ryan


Good-on-ya Ryan, I think the Army could've saved themselves some grief
if only they'd have communicated with the public a bit better on this issue.
They may have sent letters to other museums, or this or that. But what
they failed to do..was inform their funding agents and to some degree or
the other...their fans and supporters...We the Public. The proto XCH-62
may have been paid for by the Army..but they and other bureaucrats keep
forgetting, they go to Congress for a budget, but they get the money from
U.S., the taxpayer. I checked their(our) Army website..
www.armyavnmuseum.org , and I haven't found a News-section, nor a
Gallery of displays. It's a fairly simple website, did I miss a notification
to the ArmyAir supporters-at-large of their desire to quit the caretaking
of the mock-up?? If there were an archive section I'd look for it there...but
alas..non.

Some of us look for any tidbits we can, of artifacts in danger, but when it's
treated like a secret, then we can't help them.

If anything, the rotorhead assembled with the blades would have made a
bold display if it was suspended in a hanger over museum airplanes or
helicopters. Several lost chances all the way around...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:17 am 
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Occassionally, the Air Force museum sells aircraft and items surplus to their needs. A year or so ago they had a Hispano HA-1112 Buchon, and other items available for bid. Fort Campbell, Ky. is having auctions almost monthly as they are selling off buildings (WWII) vintage. They have to be dismantled and hauled off within a given time frame.
I'm sorry to say but, IMO, someone bucking for a promotion was trying to sanitize their area of responsibility on the base and used the easiest and most expedient method to get "in regulation" .


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