Warbird Information Exchange

Hey Guys and Girls! I have heard that the deal has been inked. The CAF has purchased David Prices' Mk XIV Spitfire. I do not know when the official announcement will be made.....
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/spitregi ... nh749.html
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Hi Rob--

Just a guess, but perhaps there was a specified donation or bequest made to the Commemorative AF for purchase of the Spit?

S.

Col Rohr,

Funny, but I seem to remember hearing Lloyd say, as far back as the mid-80's, that the name needed changing.

I agree, however, that more of the membership should have voted, so as to avoid these inevitable comments that "a minority has changed the name".

What people seem to forget is that current corporate sponsors of the CAF and Airsho have been saying, for years, that the name is getting in the way of the mission. For myself, I can attest that at EVERY airshow I have brought the planes to, some member of the public would make a comment or ask a question involving some combination of racism, or the Civil War. Those distractions have gone away since the name change.

Did you feel strongly enough about keeping the name that you would have made a large donation annually to the CAF if we retained Confederate as part of the name?


Lastly, I thought Col Culpeper's name was Jethro, not Jeb.


Regards

Jase

Hi Jase!

Thanks for clarifying what is reality, i.e. public opinion, etc. I liked the ring the old name had, but it has a kind of historical anchor that just isn't pretty.

BTW... What aircraft do you crew for the CAF? Any chance any of us would be seeing you a airshows in the near future?

Mike

_________________
Mike R. Henniger
Aviation Enthusiast & Photographer
http://www.AerialVisuals.ca
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Do you want to find locations of displayed, stored or active aircraft? Then start with the The Locator.
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I was on the Yellow Rose for many years and never heard a word about it, only about "The Rose" on the A/C. That we need to cover her up, not!

And yes the name sounds like a coin set.

Cheers,

Lynn

OK, guys, I'm just a little tired of the sniping over this. I for one am very happy to add another aircraft, certainly one as important as a Spitfire. Redtail will be rebuilt and so will the Wildcat. Anyone want to take on the B-23, TBM, and AM-1. Pony up...... I have been working on a couple of guys to take on one-two of these projects, but that has not happened... yet.... The AM-1 may be in the best shape out of these three..... (the Mauler on its gear, not the disassembled one). About the name change..... our membership has a very apethetic turnout for voting... The last general staff vote.........again, only 10% voted for the next three members of the general staff....... Rob, whether I liked the name change or not, to keep Fina on board as the major airshow sponsor and to secure State and other private money for various projects, the name change HAD to occur. Within the next few months. groundbreaking will begin on a new 5 million dollar hanger, built mostly with STATE money.
Lastly, Bob Rice follows what policy is given to him from the General Staff. Steve Barber on the General Staff, is also the chair of aircraft acquisition and a good friend of David Price. We (CAF) were pursueing the Hurricane, Zero, and Spit. The Huri was sold. We still may acquire the Zero. An He-111 is still high on the list.... I found this to be true... If one wants to change what you do not like, 1)get involved, 2)get on one of the committees, or 3)get elected to the General Staff. It does work, I can attest to that...... The bottom line goal is to keep them flying and we all want that. I will now step off the soap box....lol........ Regards, Alan

Hi all--

Wow, what a ruckus one Canuck can cause by using too-current terminology... :-) I certainly didn't intend to bend anybody out of shape; and just for clarity I didn't have a problem with the CAF's original name, but did certainly sense an irony in it once I learned of the Redtail Project a few years back! I can, though, see how some backers might have been made nervous by the connotations one could draw from it. And if no less a figure than the CAF's own founder had said the name ought to change...that's hard to argue with. Anyway, plain "CAF" it'll be from this quarter in future. And BTW it was grand to see the CAF quartet of rarities at Akron last weekend. Only took me twenty years to get this good a look at "Diamond Lil"...

Cheers

S.

Hi all:

Replys first, then some comments: PLEASE NOTE: I am speaking ONLY my personal opinions on this board, and am not speaking for any organization I am a member of.

Mike: I am the crew chief and Asst Mx Officer for National Capitol Squadron. (www.nationalcapitolsquadron.com ) We were assigned the Spitfire that burned up at CWH. I crew a Stinson L-5 and a BT-13A (ONLY BT flying, in Normal Category, with a T-6 powerplant HOO boy do she climb!). We bought the BT in Maine and donated it to the CAF. I also own and fly a 1941 Piper J-5A. Love to see you at an East Coast airshow or Airsho, look for the short guy with a mustache and black cowboy hat.

Rob: Would that be the Aerostructures group of Goodrich? I thought that Goodrich bought them in the 90's. Also, I never said or implied that the NAACP or any other outfit protested the name. What I did say, was that various members of the general public would constantly ask questions like " Confederate? Whutz dat? Are y'all a bunch of racists?" or another constant one was "Gee, I didn't know they had airplanes during the War of Northern Aggression (Civil War)".

That's interesting to know about the Headquarters policy. Wonder why, if that policy predated Lloyd's death, the CAF has bought airplanes since? The P-38 pops to mind, as well as others. Can you direct me to exactly where that policy is formalized, in any of the Unit Manuals or the By-Laws?

Finally, I will say this: I personally have been told, by an organization of military veterans of all people, (previous to the name change) that financial support of the CAF and/or the local wing would be "PR suicide". I haven't heard anything remotely like that since the name change, and as a matter of fact our fundraising at the Squadron level has shot up over the last two years. Now I doubt that the name change is the *only* reason for the increase in funds raised, but I believe it's at least 50% responsible.

Regards

Jase

Mention about adding a Spit and see what we get.... Hey guys just got off from work... so bear with me..... Hey Rob, sorry to disappoint you, but FINA was the one of the primary reasons for the name change. Straight out from the general staff members. FINA was getting very uncomfortable with the "Confederate" name. After FINA was bought by Alon, (an Isrealy Company) this intensified. The name change was voted in and Alon/FINA have remained on board as primary Airsho' sponsors. Personally, I liked "Ghost Squadron" as the best choice of name... I lost. To the best of my understanding, the Spit was bought, not donated. As I mentioned earlier, Bob Thompson stated that the CAF were actively seeking the purchase of the Huri, Spit, and Zero. This was at last Oct's meeting with all members in the main hanger. We accomplished 1/3 of that goal with another 1/3 to go. I have forgotten my favorite airshow disclaimer from friend and announcer Ray Norton. Anything I mention that has fact in it, is extremely coincidental. lol....... Oh, and Steve you can call us whatever you want. We are used to it!!!! TIA, Fly safe, Fly often, Alan Brooks

You've got some issues.

Hello Rob..... please don't get me wrong, I enjoy seeing your passion..... even if just a little off center......lol 1) The Spitfire. It was stated as a goal to get the other aircraft (significant a/c I might add) airworthy.... That was a GOAL. If members and private entities donate cash for acquisition aircraft for use at the CAF's discretion, whats the beef? Did we pay full market price? I do not know. That was up to Mr Price. Will he continue to sponsor the aircraft? I do not know. But that is HIS business. I hope we will acquire the Zero. Would have loved to have the Hurricane. Maybe later on we will acquire one. 2) I care who is the Airsho sponsor, but is does not have to be an American company. I want someone who cares and is willing to make the financial and personal committment to the CAF! If you want to get rid of Alon/Fina, then bring us additional sponsors every year to the tune of about $150K, just to get the ball rolling. I would rather have BOTH. 3)Get involved. I did. Steve Rister and I are part of Bill Coombes warbird invite committee. Bill was very gracious is letting us participate. You know why? I, and many other members were so ticked off at the extremely low turnout for major iron last year. Granted there were many, many mechanicals last year... The show was supposed to have had four Spits... three went down to mechanicals..... we had one. Budget was another factor... That has been corrected. To me the HQ show is a reflction of the CAF as a whole..... 4) How many potential Airsho' sponsors have you contacted, or Chalet sponsors... It all helps the show. 5) Have you called your warbird owners/drivers to talk up the show and work on an invite for them, or encouraged them to call Bill or Eric? Rob, I applaud your passion, turn that energy into positive action. I don't think anyone could slow you down. 5) Something new has a possible chance for appearing at the 05 airshow. A possible warbird judging/competition event. Where did this suggestion come from? Me! Why? Because I cared enough to want to make a difference. Griping from the outside did NOTHING. I made a proposal, had about 30 copies made, and presented that to individual members of the General Staff and to several members of the Awards Committee. We will see where it goes, it is in committee. I have the first sponsor already. I have most of the judges in waiting..... Significant people in the warbird community. 6) Sponsor an aircraft. We have several available. Expensive, you know it. Worth every penny!
Ok, Rob, I never type this much for anyone... that makes you a special person.... would love to see your storage area..... any Wildcat stuff? ..... Alan

The B-17 is not being restored? ........ Just kidding, the Gulf Coast Wing (Texas Raiders) has finally update their website.
http://www.gulfcoastwing.org
Click on "more" underneath the two B-17 pics. There is picture of one of the newly made terminal ends for the spars. No other B-17 operator has had this problem to this extent. TR and the Gulf Coast Wing had to chart new territory for this problem. Blake, can you give a new update?
There is also a transcript of the spar AD. Interesting reading. Alan

Hi all:

Rob: Nope, our BT came from Fryeburg, ME. Owned by a fella named Walker, who used to be the Air America Chief Pilot. My understanding on projects is this : ANY wing or squadron can request assignment of any of the planes that are up for assignment. The Wing has to show: Pledges or $$ in hand to cover the Min Fund Balance; a hangar to keep the plane in; and people who are competent to restore the plane. The restorers can be either volunteers or a shop, or a combination thereto. It's really not difficult at all, I know as I've been involved in the process. What rules would you like to see changed?? Also, what CAF airplanes have you been involved with restoration of? If you read the Unit Manuals from the CAF, on the very first page you'll see verbiage that says (paraphrased) If a Unit finds that it cannot comply with the guidance herein, the Unit may apply to HQ to be released from that rule. What that means, in practice, is that a Unit can "get around" a rule that would be onerous to comply with, so long as that would not impact safety.

As far as the "big move" went: My understanding is that the C-54 and the C-97 (Not a goon) were NOT CAF assets, that they were owned by the USAFM and were scrapped at the request of the USAFM.

As far as your comments "Headquaters could have gone out and look for other major sponsor insatead of COWTIEING to ALON demands. This is one of the reason alot of members didn't vote. " In my opinion, this mindset is the reason that the CAF has earned the poor reputation it has among a lot of people. I *KNOW* for a fact that HQ is CONSTANTLY looking for other additional corporate sponsors. The problem has gotten much easier now that we don't have to apologize for the name even before we ask for $$. Quite frankly, the major reason that a large percentage of the members do not vote is laziness, pure and simple. Same reason that a small percentage of registered voters actually vote in Presidential elections.

As far as there being "no option" on the name, yeah, that's right, keeping Confederate was not going to be an option, for reasons that I and others have set out in this thread. The TX DOT grant that Alan refers to for the O Club and the new hangar would NEVER have happened with the old name. The question I had to ask myself , and you ought to ask yourself is this: "Do I like the Confederate name enough to allow the organization to DIE just to keep a name, that really has nothing to do with the mission"? My answer was HELL NO.

I *LOVE* the CAF, and what it stands for, and the opportunities that being involved with it have given me. I have put multi-thousands of my own dollars into the planes directly, as well as to HQ. Hell, I even guaranteed a note. I also have put over 1,000 hours per year, for the last 8 years, into the organization. Having said all of that, you and everyone else need to realize something: The days when a few well-heeled people could run a "Flying Museum" out of their own pockets (Unless your name is Allen or Weeks) are gone gone GONE. If we, the CAF (and other Flying Museums) want to survive, grow, and thrive, we have NO choice but to court corporate sponsorships. The staggering costs of parts, repairs, engine overhauls, and insurance dictate this neccessity. It's not my first choice either, but unless you are willing to stroke an annual cheque for a few hundred thousand, corporate sponsorships and grants are inevitable.

Here's a last fer instance: A local shop just donated a paint job on our BT-13A. That's a $20,000 donation, that would NOT have happened without the name change, just at our Unit. I wonder what other Units experiences have been.....

Regards

Jase

Mr Rohr,

If you want to start an organization to fight political correctness, I will be happy to be a charter member.

The CAF is trying to keep these old airplanes flying. The word "Confederate" was a liability to that mission. You are entitled to your opinion, but, changing the name was the right thing to do.

I currently sit on the General Staff, the name change was done before my watch. My understanding is that Coca-Cola threatened to pull out of the Dixie Wing Airshow in Atlanta and so the Dixie Wing asked the General Staff to consider the change.

With regard to the low election turnout, typical of any organization, less than 20% of the members are truly involved, and about half of them vote. That percentage is typical in most volunteer organizations. Compare our voting percentages to groups like AOPA where almost no members vote, everyone casts proxies.

I can tell you personally that the old name was a continious problem for the Redtail Project. I can also share that I never heard an "Original Tuskegee Airmen" complain about it. They are way too classy for that. But they were very supportive of the change.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal

_________________
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal