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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:55 pm 
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There was no counter offer just acceptance of what you said! :-)
Quote:
Tell you what Jack, find out if anyone up there at Madras will take MY CHECK, I'll write one right now to cover a new paint job. So drop the "write a check" BS

and Lyle said
Quote:
If you would like to fully cover any and all costs to repaint the Madras Maiden in accurate markings that are based on a red color scheme, we would entertain your offer. The replacement of the Madras Maiden nose art is not an option though.- Lyle

and the cost...
Quote:
$15K to strip and repaint to 351st BG markings Triangle J markings.

351st BG markings are stunning and have a triangle J on the tail with a red angled band!
whatever came after that was a counter offer...................... :-)
But, I did find someone to take a check! :P

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:59 pm 
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Jack Wallace served in the 91st Bomb Group. Born and raised in Oregon. He is present in both of those crew photos. Tail gunner on 35 missions. Most of them on Shirley Jean. I had the honor of having fly on our B-17 last year. He just recently passed.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:02 pm 
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I have been involved with mantaining and restoration of warbirds for 35 years. When I see a new restored warbird, I don't go and research to see if the paint scheme chosen is historically accurate. IMO, I think the reasons given for choosing the MM scheme are valid. After all, if you want accuracy, then most warbirds should be painted in the schemes they really wore when they were in
Military service. After all, Most warbirds still flying never saw combat. So, these machines aren't accurate at all, but a representation of aircraft who did see combat. I support anyone who is willing to spend their hard earned dollars to keep these magnificent machines in the air. :drink3:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:03 pm 
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Cook maybe you should read it again, My offer was to repaint the thing artwork included. His offer was OK but the artwork stays. That's a counter-offer. And trust me I could find a very capable group to paint the thing for far less than $15K Artwork included and it would look fantastic. That I know what I'm talking about.

I'm done, he knows how to contact me if he wishes.

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Last edited by Mark Allen M on Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:15 pm 
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mustanglover wrote:
DATELINE JANUARY 1, 2019

Husband: "Honey I just realized we can now afford to own and operate a B-17 Flying Fortress!!!!"

Wife: "Baby, that is awesome let's get that one that is for sale right now......just remember the pact we made that you would paint an image of me on it and call it the Maiden of Marysville!!"

Husband: "On second thought, we don't really need a B-17 and anyway, the guys at WIX, Flypast and all those modeling sites would be really pissed off if we did that type of un-authentic paint scheme...and I would just hate to piss them off"



LMAO! :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:20 pm 
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I rather have this discussion over a drink at a bar sometime! It would be a lot more fun!
In my book, it's flying and it's preserved: I'm Happy! :D
Thank you Mr. Erickson.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:48 am 
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I for one hope they take you up on your offer, Mark! I'd let them keep the maiden artwork on the one side though. Better have it 95% accurate then nothing at all. Could still have the accurate noseart on the other side or something

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:30 am 
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I've decided to make it a mission to see if Lyle and his group will take my offer. A few of us have found a real nice scheme that would honor an Oregon veteran. (And all Oregon vets) We'll see what comes of it. Keep the artwork you got on it that honors Madras. That's fine if there's no other way. And a more realistic scheme wouldn't take much effort as you can see in the photos I posted. More realistic artwork could go on the other side which would be a real nice thing to do.

Anyone who's annoyed by me or this thread? Sorry but tough. Get over it. This could be a great opportunity to 'get something right' and do something right. You'd think some here would be happy some of us care enough to try to make a difference.

I made an offer, Lyle seemed to accept it on condition. It can be worked out to where everyone is happy and a good cause is achieved. The relatives of Jack Wallace are ecstatic that maybe, just maybe something nice might happen, I'll admit it's a long shot but stranger things have happened. The offer was made to me and you can go back and read it, I'm here ready to take your offer. If the guy would have told me to go F myself, I wouldn't be rambling on like this trying to make something happen.

Anyone who nievely thinks I'm doing this for pats on the back or worse to insult or dishonor the efforts of Mr. Erickson and his group are fools. And don't make an even bigger fool of yourself by thinking that's the case. You can take it as how you see it I suppose. I have no problem trying to make an effort here and for those who don't like it ... You don't want to know what I think but you could probably guess.

Again if your tired of reading my posts tough. Come help out then. Anyone interested in helping out here's your chance, PM me anytime.

Update: Just spoke with someone who knows the Erickson group well and who knows his warbird stuff well. Very experienced, knowledgable and good guy. They don't need anything from me or my help with anything. They have their own plans currently and for down the road for the B-17 and other aircraft. Class outfit all the way. My apologies once again and best of luck.

And Brad trust me I won't be editing this post.
*edited by WixMODCharlie (sorry :p )*

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Last edited by Mark Allen M on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:15 am 
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Furline: stop trolling
Mark: generous offer, let's hope you guys can work out a deal. Until then, let's leave it at this.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:37 pm 
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I'd like to drop in my two cents, for what it's worth.

There is a great subjectivity to each person's interpretation of history and that can be problematic in trying to leverage accuracy and presentation. Ask yourselves, just what is being accomplished by keeping these old aircraft flyable?

Warbirds (as in, flyable ones) are not exactly a shining example of historical accuracy. Military equipment has never had a reputation for being built to last, and warbird aircraft are no exception, yet we have airframes out there that have been flying now for over sixty years. So, we end up with massive engine modifications, inaccurate paint sprayed everywhere for corrosion control, and huge portions of equipment removed entirely just to save weight. Then, to top that off, in the interest of attracting paying customers, many warbirds have been modified to comfortably sit passengers - turning old aircraft into flying versions of a novelty festival ride. Think about how many B-17s out there have dummy turrets (or no turrets), contain extra seats added to and fro, and are sprayed from stem to stern green on the inside. Taigh Ramey and others who strive for maximum restoration (turrets, radios, etc.) are not the norm; at least, not yet.

When you look at these shiny birds objectively, it's hard not to conclude that the only really accurate aspect to them is that they fly. Granted, I'm not one of those who feel that their postwar lives are worthy of much rememberance - no matter how monotonous it may get, I don't think you overstate the importance of 60 million dead. No matter how beautiful they are and how cool they sound (they are and they do), we cannot forget that they are pieces of military equipment from a bygone era. That's just a difficult image to convey at an airshow.

I recall a history program where the presenter was chatting with a British Medieval historian: the presenter laughed as they practiced chopping melons and sticks with an executioner's axe. When the historian put a hog cadaver up on the block, the presenter got serious and mumbled, "this isn't fun anymore" as he tried in vain to chop through the bloody carcass.

Those of you who who have served know well that the military is not a pretty place, and those of you who have seen combat know that war is not something to be taken lightly. That said, I cannot help but agree with Mark in regard to the current "Madras Maiden" markings. It's not the ficticious name that I find disrespectful, but moreso, the lack of concern for the aircraft's origins. Paying tribute to veterans of the 1940s, noseart was applied that any layman would instantly identify as a modern-day Daisy Duke knockoff. Ficticious squadron codes aren't nice either, but that only means that you lose the opportunity to explain how such markings worked during the war. Yes, I realize that other warbirds have had similar treatments (Diamond Lil comes to mind) but that just means that they are equally as guilty.

If my post comes off as rude or mean spirited, I do apologize as that was not the intent. I will say, however, that Matt's suggestion of Shirley Jean was, in my opinion, rather ingenious - though I might suggest finding a Pathfinder aircraft, as it was my understanding that Chuckie originally carried a Mickey set.

Hoping to help, I found this pic of the Vargas pinup that Shirley Jean was based on:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:32 pm 
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FWIW, TheBigBadGman, I'm giving your post a 5-star rating. 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:57 am 
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Really...the usual angst over historically correct markings has now been expanded to include art criticism, paint methods (airbrush vs. paintbrush) and overall "I know better than you" snobbery...(really calling the artwork "Daisy Duke" is a bit harsh and insulting).

Open up a book and look at the noseart, much of it was pretty poorly done, if you had a aircraft, would you really do a historically correct but bad looking piece of noseart (not to mention avoiding the overly sexist nature of some of the art that would be sure to offend many today and lead to your ship being banned from events at USAF bases)?

Complaining about using an airbrush is really silly, what's next...angst over using modern engine oil vs. the 1945 stuff or the fact that the cockpit has a GPS mounted? BTW: that last B-17 I toured had a few modern Coke cans aboard...none of the 40's-era small bottles. The horror. :)

For cryin' out loud, just be happy that someone has the money to buy and is willing to operate the thing.
In a world of $6+ a gallon avgas, a growing segment of society that doesn't know or care about WWII history, is anti-military, or see the aircraft as a flying source of pollution...the warbird community has other issues to consider other than criticizing/insulting the work of a private owner and museum.

BTW: I've never heard a WWII vet at an event gripe about a paint scheme...they're simply happy and amazed that there are any of the things left and someone is willing to fly and share them.

Most of the guys who get bent out of shape over stuff like this is guys who weren't there/can't afford an airplane /or don't fly a warbird...proverbial back seat drivers.
Really, put down Air Classics, get out of your parent's basement and do something constructive to help the warbird community.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:37 am 
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I started this, see if I can end it.

Spoke with some real nice Erickson people. They have fantastic plans for down the road. Rest assure Everyone will be happy. Outstanding people up there and a great collection that's only going to get better.

Mark

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:58 am 
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Thread locked for the time being

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