Warbird Information Exchange

Over the past few years there have been many discussions about copyright infringements, ownership and who can and cannot post pictures not only here on the WIX but online as a whole. While some have expressed their opinions in public there have been many threatening PM's. This post is not intended to be a free for all for right or wrong discussion and if it gets out of control it will be locked. Not that WIX management doesn't respect everyone’s opinion on this very topic, rather this is intended to be a FYI post. So let us step back, take a deep breath try to understand the legal interpretation and just try to understand where the copyright laws are going. After all a large % of posted pictures here are public domain since they were from WWII.

http://www.socialmediaexaminer.com/copyright-fair-use-and-how-it-works-for-online-images/

WIXMOD-DELTA (for)
WIX management

Although I've taken many photos and have had a few used commerically (a RC P-51D Mustang box and a CD if AT-6/SNJ manuals come to mind) without my permission probably 85% of my posting are WWII era photos has most of you know. After 35 years of collecting I have a big bunch of photos! Copywright isn't an issue with most all of these and it's simple...you (or I) don't own it and have no rights to it because it's gov't and considered public domain. I was recently told once you post a photo online expect it to be stolen because it's fair game and no one gives a darn. OK yeah everyone's done it (check my avatar!) to one degree or another. But in my case many came from the NARA before Footnote or whatever it's called now. That takes time, dedication and money. You acquire the photo from NARA (airfare, room, car ect aren't cheap!) then you spend time fixing it up a bit maybe changing the format or restoring the color. You decide to share it then some A/ss-Jack steals it, posts it to his flickr page (keeping your exact caption) adds a copywrite to it then shares with anyone he wants and takes credit for the time, effort and money you've invested. Someone may even repost it here and still with your own caption. I don't feel like my property has been stolen but I sure feel disrespected. When approached they hide behind that great excuse shield of "it's in the public domain". Now to be honest I've been accused of stealing from stealers themselves and had people demand I remove certain ebay auctions claiming ownership because they have an "THE" original (gee I have an original too so go bleep-off!). I try and be respectful of others and I usually do a pretty good job. Why is it so hard to ask first and give credit when due? Here's a link to the biggest disresptor of people's time and effort of the internet. His personal record with me is roughly 1 minute flat from my post on FB to his flckr page. http://www.flickr.com/photos/kemon01/ If you want to see my pictures just search on wix because I've shared 1000s here! I think the sharing of the photos I taken and collected should be left up to.....well me! Copywrite be damned!
If people were more respectful of others the world would be a much better place.
Just saying...........................

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Don't touch my junk!!

Well Hmmm!!! this is interesting to wake up to today and since I'm one of the guys who posts a sh*t load of photos here I feel obligated to respond. If any of this has to do with any of my postings or you have been receiving PM's regarding anything I've posted I'm out of the loop, FWIW I haven't heard of any problems in a long, long time. I had a couple of banned trolls bitch a long while ago but other than that I've had nothing but good feedback. If there are those who are offended or are complaining about anything, it's news to me.

Although I still enjoy posting old photos for the folks who do enjoy them, it's an easy fix if there are those who can't quite man-up and chose to complain to the management about my postings without contacting me first. I guess that would be their prerogative. As for me, like I said, it's an easy fix, I simply quite posting ... problem solved.

Again FWIW for every photo I have ever posted, there are at least 50 flickr and ebay accounts that have the same photos. It's hard to find the original website source for most of this stuff along with the fact that you are indeed correct that "After all a large % of posted pictures here are public domain since they were from WWII".

I do the best I can with my threads to give proper credit and respect to any and all people, places and locations of photos I post, that's the best I can do and I have NO problems sleeping at night concerning my efforts.

We've regurgitated this old discussion to the point of nausea.

If this has nothing to do with me ..... whatever man! life is short.

PS the only photos I have ever stolen and have taken credit as being mine are ALL of Jack Cook's photos simply because he's not smart enough to figure out I stole them from him ...

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[Thread title is ridiculous btw]

Not talking about you at all my friend! Not one iota!

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Don't touch my junk!!

I had copyright law back in law school. Its a hobby of mine now. Lots to say and not enough room to say it all.


Just because a photo doesn't have a watermark on it with a name doesn't mean its NOT copyrighted since copyright attaches at creation, when the shutter clicks. Registering it adds in additional rights, but the photog still owns it.

I read the article... Some parts are good, others are less good... Its a subject you can't cover in a page long short on a website. Nor can you have a discussion about it on a website where people who are not knowledgeable may well be interjecting their WRONG opinions.

"Fair use" is a defensive term. The article talks about copying works for classroom use... Thats BS. An excerpt yes, a whole "work" no.. So its fair to assume the author didn't know exactly what he was talking about....

Public domain... Broad term here. Once a copyright expires, then the work becomes PD. You can't "put" a work into PD. There is no mechanism for that. You can release it and not pursue any copyright remedies, which effectively lets the work be distributed.

Ownership of the physical property doesn't give you rights. If you buy a painting from an artist, you don't own reproduction rights. Rights to copyright can only be transfered in writing. No other way. So if you buy a box of photos, you don't own the copyrights. If you father, mother or brother took the picture, you don't own the copyright....

If you have the copyright, you can display the work. If you don't own the copyright, then you can't display it. What that means is you can't POST a link or the photo anywhere you want even if you give credit (proper attribution of credit DOESN'T give you rights to do anything)....

Example copyright holders may not want to have their works displayed in a certain place. They may not want them posted here. They may not want them on FaceBook. They may not want them on the web. Example. You take a picture of your 2 year old son. Would you really want that picture to show up as HOTTIE OF THE MONTH on a child molester website?

Thats the same as the stipulation that goes with media credentials. When you sign to get them you generally say you will only distribute the material you gather (photos for instance) in the "outlet" (IE Magazine) that you were approved for. So everyone who gets Media at the Reno Air Races SHOULDN'T be posting photos on FB without additional permission. On the other hand if you were in the crowd, you can post pics on FB... But thats getting off the subject.

The real and only copyright "police" here should be the "poster" who puts a picture up and the "moderator" who decides if it should be up or not. Bottom line. Assuming Scott actually owns the site, he's responsible for violations. If there is a DMCA notice filed WIX comes down if they don't comply. If a lawsuit gets filed, then the poster is on the hook for making the violation and Scott is on the hook for allowing it to happen. Safest thing would be for WIX to have a "remove on request" policy, where is anyone asks anything be taken down it comes down immediately. At least that would show Scott is not complicit in any violations and removes items in good faith.

Bottom line, if its not yours don't post it. Don't link to it. Thats the safest way.

I'm sure August will have something to say here (correct me if I'm wrong August)...


Mark H

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Fly safe or you get to meet me .......

I'm sure there are more people than August here capable of saying something and correcting you if you're wrong. As for your "remove on request" policy? I've had that policy in place since day one I started posting photos here on WIX, it's called a simple PM. Always works for me and never fails and what's even better is that a PM directly to me about anything I've posted gets resolved quickly and alleviates Scott or any of the moderators the BS.

I'm quite aware of the rules of posting photos on the internet, most all the time I'm right on the money with following those rules, sometimes sh*t happens and the rules get a little bent, but never enough for me to worry about it as I just as soon pull down the photo and be done with it. A simple "oops sorry" goes a long way with me, as it should with others.

Of course 99.999% of any photo I post is usually a copy of a copy of a copy that is 65 to 75 years old to begin with. Like I said I sleep just fine.


Trust me he owns it and does an outstanding job of running and enforcing the place.

I think I do a pretty good job of "policing" myself, and I have yet to see anyone else not doing the same.

Bottom line is this is all for the enjoyment of ALL of us who like this stuff but it can also come to a screeching halt if there are too many problems. if it sounds like I'm spewing off defending myself? ... yah! perhaps

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[Thread title is ridiculous btw]

No doubt. But unlike me, the others probably have the good sense to keep their thoughts to themselves.

Actually Mark H's analysis, including his critique of the article, is spot-on and I have nothing really to add. I agree that the article is too complacent about fair use, but that's not usually the issue on Wix. On Wix people usually appeal to the "government works" exception. Wixers who post wartime photos tend to interpret this exception generously and self-servingly. That's fine, although hearing these same people crow about their scrupulous adherence to the copyright laws can be amusing. And Mark H is right: any time Scott receives a not-so-amusing email from someone saying, "Hey, that wartime photo of that fighter pilot was taken by my dad, the crew chief, with his personal camera, I own the copyright as his heir, take it down now," he should take it down now.

August

Unless of course they're lawyers as well then you could debate the "good sense" all day long ... joking!!!



I completely agree as long as he has proof it was his dad, the crew chief, who took the photo with his camera, and proof of copyright and not just claiming he owns it. I see that happen on WIX as well. Unless you have proof of copyright you really have no pot to piss in. If it's a case of a photo I posted? It's even easier, you just PM ME and the photo comes down no matter who owns it. I don't need the drama ... and quite frankly neither does Scott.


True, unless of course you do indeed have permission from the legal copyright holder to post it. Or If you find an infringing use of your photo, the copyright statute of limitations (SOL) says that you have three years to file a claim — otherwise you’re, well, SOL.... don't forget that part.

“No civil action shall be maintained under the provisions of this title unless it is commenced within three years after the claim accrued.”
— 17 U.S.C. §507(b)

But here's a example of what to do if you have a problem with a photo being posted here and want it taken down.

The 7 Basic Parts of the DMCA takedown notice:
1. The SUBJECT
2. IDENTIFY who you are
3. EXPLAIN why you are sending a DMCA Takedown Notice
4. SHOW proof of the copyright
5. Good faith statement
6. Perjury statement
7. Electronic Signature and personal information

http://www.dmca.com/FAQ/Creating-a-Take ... ng-DMCAcom

And what is DMCA you ask?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Mi ... yright_Act

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[Thread title is ridiculous btw]

This entire topic is very interesting, and I'm glad WIXMOD-Delta started it.

I have a legitimate question for our learned ones who've actually studied copyright law: How would someone prove that they are the copyright holder of an image if they have not filed paperwork to claim it?

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Dean Hemphill, K5DH
Lake Dallas, Republic of Texas

Good question. There are two stages to it. First, proving the identity of the creator, whether it's you or someone else. Second, if the creator is someone else, proving you have acquired the right from the creator.

Bear in mind that it only has to be proven to a preponderance, not to a certainty. A plausible story may be enough. And, if you have possession of the highest-quality version (i.e. original negative), that is a strong piece of evidence.

But if you're posting photos that are not yours, it's the wrong question. The right question is, can you prove you have the right to display the photo? Because if you can't, you've basically taken the position that it's okay to steal, as long as the true owner can't prove it's his stuff you stole. Not a strong position, legally or morally.

August

Of course the all too often quagmire of if you ask permission to post a photo that someone else has stolen without your knowledge and claims the photo's copyright belongs to him when it doesn't, I suppose you should be legally and morally obligated to ask for legitimate proof of copyright before posting. Good luck with that. Your best bet is to forget the whole idea and find another photo from someone with legitimate proof of ownership that gives you his blessing to post away.

Or better yet just forget the whole idea of posting photos at all and partake in regurgitated copyright conversations instead. In my case I haven't found a way to transport myself back 70 years to take my own photos so that's always been a problem.

Seriously? If you feel uncomfortable posting a photo you find on the Internet, regardless of where you found it and who gave you permission or not, just so your contious doesn't bother you and you can have a moral piece of mind, scratch the whole idea, it's not worth the effort and you wouldn't want people to think it's OK to steal.

Luckily for WIX if the owner of the site wanted to pull the plug on posting photos completely due to legal rambling, bickering and complaints, there would still be plenty of riveting conversation left.

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[Thread title is ridiculous btw]

From the other end of the camera. I and the museum's planes have been photographed to the "Nth" degree. As a courtesy, if you take a cool photo of someones plane, offer a copy. The professionals ALWAYS give photos to their subject planes owners or caretakers. It might not be the "Cover shot", but it's a click away at least. At the age where everyone takes photos now, and posts them, it seems that most feel they don't owe anybody anything. That's one reason you don't see the "hey let's go up and shoot some shots of your plane" attitude accepted anymore. There was a cool shot taken of me flying the Caribou at Oshkosh this year. I asked for a copy. I didn't even get an answer. I never even had to ask in the past. I used to let people get inside shots and do what ever I could to help out even the amateurs. But it's just not fun anymore. Especially when many are demanding. As far as I'm concerned, if you take a photo of me or the aircraft I'm with, I'm part of the photo.

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Blue Skies,
Doug

www.cavanaughflightmuseum.com

Sure! I have no problem with this, sounds like to nice thing to do and that's fine with me. I'm not sure where you're proposing to make this offer, most airshows I have attended there are very few owners etc. to be found to make an offer to, and most would probably tell you "No that's OK I have plenty of photos already". If you mean to contact the owner after the show via phone, e-mail, what have you, and offer a few photos, well OK that's fine too but I would assume you would get more times than not the same answer. I don't know, but as a sort of defense for those who simply show up at a public event taking photographs of things that are plainly visible from public spaces is a constitutional right which requires no permission and there's no reason to believe you owe anyone anything. Of course When you are on private property such as a private airport, museum etc., the property owner may have rules about the taking of photographs and this would change things for sure. But I certainly agree with you about making an attempt to be a good human being and last I checked it's really not that difficult to do.


Sorry to hear that, but that's just another example of not everyone is "cool" and as much as we would all like to think the world is filled with neat people who care about each other ... well no point in going there.


I would assume those "professionals" have better access and communication with the owners as well so not surprising that would be the case. Still no excuse for us "amatures" to at least try to make an offer. Again nothing wrong with that.


Well again that's a shame and sorry to hear that, but not all of us are losers. I still live by the "give em the benefit of the doubt" until proven their not worth the effort. That way I can still think I live in a world where not all people are worthless ... but again that's just me.

Lastly I find this conversation to be interesting and informative as long as it's not a stacked conversation on one side only. AND as long as it stays civil. Which so far it is. Thx to the lawyers I've learned a few new things here I didn't quite know even though I hate to admit it to them ...

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[Thread title is ridiculous btw]

I agree wholeheartedly with Doug. I've been very lucky with most professionals and amateurs in my home state and a few outside. They are always willing to share, especially when asking for a Hi-Res copy. But it is not always the case over all. I find pictures all over the Net of my plane and me sometimes (I'm kinda hard to see in the cockpit...LOL....joke for those who know). Friends send me copies of those they find. Some have the description woefully incorrect from those unfamiliar with the plane and history. When I attempt to enlighten the photographer, I get no response and no change. One thing that particularly gripes me is several photographers on the West Coast who have over the years taken shots of the plane and sell them on their websites or other Internet websites. I fully agree that it is their property to sell but I would have liked to be contacted for a release or such. Not as a legality but as a courtesy. I have had two photog acquaintances publish books of their aviation photographs and both requested releases from me. That is the way to handle it. None of us are that hard to find in the "Warbird World" and a simple "May I" would have been nice from those selling pictures of one and their plane.

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I agree with Doug and Karen. Every photographer I've run into has been awesome. The only exception was a good photo I found online of me taking off for a photo mission at Oshkosh 2009. I asked the photographer (amateur, not professional) if he could send me the high res file as I would love to display it in my hangar. He said I could... for $50. Blew my mind.

Like I said, 99.99% of photographers I've met were awesome and accommodating. (OK, not statistically accurate as I havent met 10000 photogs )

Keep up the good work!

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Taylor Stevenson