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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:14 pm 
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gary1954 wrote:
Actually the first Nine Production Models were the only ones with constant dyhedrial and classified as B-25. The 10th Production model birthed the B-25A pop2

Mr. Mark, more please sir :drink3:

Gary,
Thanks bud! my source is N.L. Averys B-25 MITCHELL magnificent medium, and it's a bit skimpy on early airframe details. Isn't ''Miss Hap" one of the original straight winged airframes converted to cranked wing plan?

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:30 pm 
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Those are great! Love the photo of the Mitchells lined up with the palm trees in the background.

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:48 am 
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Did the 7th AF have natural metal B-26's? Looks alot like the 19th BS 22nd BG (5th AF) "SILVER FLEET" out of Dobodura with perhaps a 3rd BG B-25 in the fore ground.

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:55 am 
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Excellent post. Is it just me or does the Mitchell just look right no matter what c/s she carries, how much "stuff" they hang off of her, stuff into her or whatever?

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:43 am 
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The Inspector wrote:

The H (or G) with the shark mouth head on, that's the factory 75mm in the tunnel not a 105 :shock:



it's a H model The Inspector Sir :supz:

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:06 am 
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The Inspector wrote:
gary1954 wrote:
Actually the first Nine Production Models were the only ones with constant dyhedrial and classified as B-25. The 10th Production model birthed the B-25A pop2

Mr. Mark, more please sir :drink3:

Gary,
Thanks bud! my source is N.L. Averys B-25 MITCHELL magnificent medium, and it's a bit skimpy on early airframe details. Isn't ''Miss Hap" one of the original straight winged airframes converted to cranked wing plan?


Norman Avery is a Great source....
Miss Hap is the 4th of the original 9 Production Model of the B-25. I would love to have a photo of Hap Arnold exiting this ship! After the War it became a VIP ship under the umbrella of the Hughes Empire, as the transport aircraft for Noah Deitrich who was Howard Hughes' right hand man.

Like the B-25C N3968C at Antelope, Hughes never flew or rode in the B-25(s) I have never been able to find a photo of Hughes with either aircraft. Everyone is under the impression that HH was "involved" with N3968C. In fact he was not. Hughes had to "Know Everything" in the aspect and operation of his empire, he trusted no one but Noah Dietrich. Dietrich bought the B-25C (N3968C) and was having it converted into a VIP configuration. A mechanic mentioned some work that was being done on the Charlie model and Hughes blew a front row of head gaskets and felt betrayed that Dietrich would do something like buying an airplane without his knowledge and approval. He fired Dietrich and ordered the B-25 parked ( I can't remember were in California but I have it in my notes) and it had to be parked into the prevailing wind, tire down and left alone. It remained parked for decades until after Hughes death when his property was sold off.

It would be more correct to say that both of the B-25s, the B-25 and the B-25C were the former property of the Hughes Empire.

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:37 pm 
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Mark Allen M wrote:
Source, San Diego Air and Space Museum archives, North American Archives. Library of Congress photo archives.

Image
345th Bomb Group


Can anyone make out the serial Nummer on this airframe? pop2

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Could be 254818? Really hard to tell exactly, tried to cross reference but to no avail! :?

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:48 pm 
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gary1954 wrote:
Like the B-25C N3968C at Antelope, Hughes never flew or rode in the B-25(s) I have never been able to find a photo of Hughes with either aircraft. Everyone is under the impression that HH was "involved" with N3968C. In fact he was not. Hughes had to "Know Everything" in the aspect and operation of his empire, he trusted no one but Noah Dietrich. Dietrich bought the B-25C (N3968C) and was having it converted into a VIP configuration. A mechanic mentioned some work that was being done on the Charlie model and Hughes blew a front row of head gaskets and felt betrayed that Dietrich would do something like buying an airplane without his knowledge and approval. He fired Dietrich and ordered the B-25 parked ( I can't remember were in California but I have it in my notes) and it had to be parked into the prevailing wind, tire down and left alone. It remained parked for decades until after Hughes death when his property was sold off.

It would be more correct to say that both of the B-25s, the B-25 and the B-25C were the former property of the Hughes Empire.


Gary,

I'd believe that would have been the (long gone) Hughes Airport in Culver City, just north of LAX.

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:11 pm 
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gary1954 wrote:
Actually the first Nine Production Models were the only ones with constant dyhedrial and classified as B-25. The 10th Production model birthed the B-25A pop2

Gary, I don't know where do you have this information from, but it's incorrect. :cry:
The first 24 B-25 (no letter) were the NAA No. NA-62, contract# W535-ac-13258. As you mentioned only the first 9 of them had initially constant dihedral. But the 10-th a/c manufactured was still a B-25. The s/n for model B-25 are from 40-2165 to 40-2188.
B-25A, NAA No. NA-62A were manufactured upon contract# W535-ac-16070 for 40 a/c with s/n from 40-2189 to 40-2228.
By the way the survivor "Miss Hap", s/n 40-2168, was the first B-25 delivered to the first BG. to make use of the "Mitchells" - the 17-th BG. It was a HC a/c. Later on it was returned to NAA damaged, before being "upgraded" with flat outer wing panels and later modified for gen. Arnold. There are some amazing memoirs by Lt. Boardman C.Reed from the 34-th BS., 17-th BG. about the deliveries of the new B-25 to McChord field in 1941. He even flew his first B-25А, s/n 40-2202 later coded 47-17В from Inglewood. Sadly, he passed away on March 12, this year. He was 99!
The Inspector wrote:
....Dirty Gertie is another case of the msn falling in a hole in Baughers lists her closest production line mates went to the Med theater so I'd guess it's just touch ups from newer paint supplies over sun bleached dings and scrapes.

You are right not only because of the s/n, but also because of the desert camo. No a/c from the 3-rd AG could have such camo. "Dirty Gertie from Bizerte" was apparently a 340-th BG. bird (this information is from one source only - a book with XL-sized posters of WWII a/c). It might be a plane from another group, which went to the 340-th later - I don't know exactly. The name is the title of a GI song from North Africa. Bizerte (or Bizerta) is a city in Tunisia and Gertie was a... :wink: "queen of the night" from there. This particular a/c was painted sand (shade 49) over neutral gray (shade 43). "Sand" is commonly known as "desert pink" (or "titty pink"), but both names are not official color or paint designation. At some point NAA stopped the production of sand-camouflaged "Mitchells" and the depots in North Africa obviously didn't receive any paint of the same color to refresh the repaired a/cs. All repairs were done in OD. It's visible that the de-icing boots were removed too and the blank metal was painted OD.
Another a/c with similar patched camo (not so heavy!) is this one:
Image
A B-25C-10 from the 340-th with the wrong interpretation of the new insignia with white bars on both wings. This a/c shows the initial operation "Torch" insignia with the yellow border on the right, later overpainted. The de-icing boots are just removed, but the bare metal is not overpainted in this case. The s/n is not the original one (in yellow), but added in black in the field.

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:49 am 
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Craig59 wrote:
gary1954 wrote:
Like the B-25C N3968C at Antelope, Hughes never flew or rode in the B-25(s) I have never been able to find a photo of Hughes with either aircraft. Everyone is under the impression that HH was "involved" with N3968C. In fact he was not. Hughes had to "Know Everything" in the aspect and operation of his empire, he trusted no one but Noah Dietrich. Dietrich bought the B-25C (N3968C) and was having it converted into a VIP configuration. A mechanic mentioned some work that was being done on the Charlie model and Hughes blew a front row of head gaskets and felt betrayed that Dietrich would do something like buying an airplane without his knowledge and approval. He fired Dietrich and ordered the B-25 parked ( I can't remember were in California but I have it in my notes) and it had to be parked into the prevailing wind, tire down and left alone. It remained parked for decades until after Hughes death when his property was sold off.

It would be more correct to say that both of the B-25s, the B-25 and the B-25C were the former property of the Hughes Empire.


Gary,

I'd believe that would have been the (long gone) Hughes Airport in Culver City, just north of LAX.


Thats the place, thanks

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:08 am 
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catch 22 wrote:
gary1954 wrote:
Actually the first Nine Production Models were the only ones with constant dihedrial and classified as B-25. The 10th Production model birthed the B-25A pop2

Gary, I don't know where do you have this information from, but it's incorrect. :cry:
The first 24 B-25 (no letter) were the NAA No. NA-62, contract# W535-ac-13258. As you mentioned only the first 9 of them had initially constant dihedral. But the 10-th a/c manufactured was still a B-25. The s/n for model B-25 are from 40-2165 to 40-2188.

By the way the survivor "Miss Hap", s/n 40-2168, was the first B-25 delivered to the first BG. to make use of the "Mitchells" - the 17-th BG. It was a HC a/c. Later on it was returned to NAA damaged, before being "upgraded" with flat outer wing panels and later modified for gen. Arnold. There are some amazing memoirs by Lt. Boardman C.Reed from the 34-th BS., 17-th BG. about the deliveries of the new B-25 to McChord field in 1941. He even flew his first B-25А, s/n 40-2202 later coded 47-17В from Inglewood. Sadly, he passed away on March 12, this year. He was 99!


Duh :roll: Guy's this is proof positive that one should not mix alcohol and planes talk, you are right about the number of B-25s versus the B-25A, I think my thought processor was F'd up in my desire to say that the constant dihedral was eliminated with the 10th production model of the NA62 Thanks for straightening this out. :drinkers:

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:09 am 
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cooper9411 wrote:
Could be 254818? Really hard to tell exactly, tried to cross reference but to no avail! :?


thats what I was seeing but didn't trust myself :? but that would come back as falling into the category of the Douglas A-24B-15-DT according to Joe Baugher's pages :axe:

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:22 am 
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Mark Allen M wrote:

Image
B-25 Mitchells from the 3rd Anti-submarine Squadron



according to Joe Baugher's pages the serial number on the closest B-25 does not fit with a B,C, or early D model, it appears to have a belly turret system as well. this number does not appear in his BuNo files, anyone have any idears?

Gary (thanks Mudge) the Perplexed

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 Post subject: Re: B-25's ...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:48 am 
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gary1954 wrote:
Mark Allen M wrote:

Image
B-25 Mitchells from the 3rd Anti-submarine Squadron



according to Joe Baugher's pages the serial number on the closest B-25 does not fit with a B,C, or early D model, it appears to have a belly turret system as well. this number does not appear in his BuNo files, anyone have any idears?

Gary (thanks Mudge) the Perplexed


Odd. Censored, perhaps? It does match up with 42-53363, a B-25C-5 originally intended for delivery to the Netherlands East Indies Air Force (according to Baugher).

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