Warbird Information Exchange

Warbird historian Joe Baugher writes, "Names such as Invader and Apache have been associated with the A-36, but the correct name is and always has been Mustang. There is a persistent myth that the A-36 was originally called Apache. However, this story has no basis in fact, and was a myth that originated in the 1980s."

Is he right? If it's a myth, I've always believed it.

From what I understand the name Apache was applied by NAA, but never adopted by the USAAF. Much the same as the F-111 was named Aardvark its entire USAF career and was not officially adopted by the USAF until the aircraft was retired.

As for the Invader name, I'm not sure about that one. Whenever I see an A-36 I always think Apache- not Mustang.


Chappie

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Brrring. Dispersal? TWO SECTIONS SCRAMBLE!!

I was always under the impression that "Apache" was the original NAA internal name for the project. "NA-73 Apache" as opposed to Mustang MkI or P-51 And that the "Apache" name transferred to the A-36's ordered while the USAAF was sorting out authorization to order P-51'.

North American themselves cite 'Invader' as an unofficial nickname in their own advertising circa 1943.

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Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.

The National Museum of the U.S. Air Force calls it an Apache.
But they mention that "Invader" was an unofficial nickname.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/fac...eet.asp?id=493

However, I have a rather quaint period book, the quarterly Recognition Guilde to Operational Warplanes published by the National Aeronautic Council, Inc. Published in 1944, it gives the A-36 variant the Invader name.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.

Didn't the popular name 'MUSTANG' get hung on the airplane by the British who used specific names for aircraft that played on where they were sourced from like CATALINA, MARYLAND, BALTIMORE for American made aircraft so they could avoid newspaper reports of ".....a flight of P-51D's escorting B-17F's today attacked...." to avoid giving the Germans additional information about what might be a newer development of an in service type?
I always understood that APACHE was a squadron level 'distracting' nickname to quell nosey Parkers.

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

Just call it a "razorback"!

Incorrect, so deleted - see below!

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

I should add that Invader got a certain currency it seems through press reports using it - press generally preferring a name rather than a dry designation.

John, interesting note for the Invader reference - I'd be interested in a scan or photo of that for my files.

Interesting reverse-engineering of data, but wrong. The British used mark numbers (equating to US model numbers) and there was no specific relationship to censorship, just an avoidance in general use of the over-specific inherent in the US system. (To talk about a Mustang Mk.IV or a P-51D is the same, but equally both a Mustang or P-51 is the same too, and both levels of detail are used.)

The British aircraft naming system is interesting, and has a lot of detail - briefly, city names for bombers, port names for marine aircraft, academic names for trainers, fish for naval attack, birds for naval fighters, RAF fighters had various themes, including manufacturer sets (Hawker's winds) - and there were lots of exceptions. US aircraft were indeed given US related names - but that fitted, generally within the series themes - most clear in Harvard and Yale for the T-6 and NA-64. There seems to have been some confusion over the differences between states and cities (Maryland, Baltimore) for bombers, and Catalina isn't a port as such, as it should have been. (But that's why the Saro London is a flying boat - it was a port, as well as a city.)

The origins of the Mustang name are well documented, and should not need repeating here, but yes, it was of British origin.

Regards,

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Stephan, drop me a PM and I'll see what I can supply.

Baugher is correct. 'Invader' was a name that the A-36 pilots in the MTO lobbied for it to be named but that was rejected, it was already named the Mustang. And the A-26 had already been designated as the invader anyway.

The name 'Apache' was used briefly by NAA sales department but that was as far as it went and the A-36 was never named anything but Mustang. Calling the A-36 'Apache' is only keeping the myth alive.

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CraigQ

Yeah, I had a bit of egg on my face after one of my first posts here when I jumped on someone about the "Invader" moniker. Since I had been away from warbirds and aviation history for awhile, I had completely forgotten about it (although as pointed out before, it was never widely used so therefore it was easy to forget).

I'd be very interested in any references to prove or support that.

Regards,

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

This is from Michael Vorassi, member of my P51 SIG who has years and years of data and research experience on the Mustang and has proven time and time again to be correct. Ask Juanita Franzi, the artist for your book who came to the SIG for information and research for her profiles. She asked lots of questions and got lots of answers, she will enlighten you on what she learned.

Here in it's entirety is a copy of the paper Michael did on this subject,

CraigQ
P51SIG Admin/Owner

By the way, as an aircraft & warbird mechanic I have yet to see ANY manual on ANY A-36 or P-51 with the word 'Apache' in or on it, only Mustang.

:
"The A-36 WAS a Mustang, not just a member of the family! The only airplane to ever be called Apache in the US Military is the AH-64 attack helicopter. Fellow modelers and aviation buffs, an earnest plea, please stop calling the A-36 an Apache. The A-36 had a proper official name and that was "Mustang." The only NA-73 derived airplanes ever to carry the Apache name (and unofficially at that) were the two XP-51's, and the Apache name was dropped in June 1942, when all US NA-73 derived airframes officially adopted the British name, Mustang. Apache was the NAA sales department name for the NA-73 design when trying to sell it to the USAAF. The name predated the concept of the A-36 by almost two years (I have an October 1940 magazine ad for the NAA Apache fighter. It has no bomb racks or dive brakes in the artist's rendition of NA-73). The Apache name was gone four months before the first A-36 rolled off the assembly line in September 1942. No pilot who ever flew an A-36 ever called it an Apache. It is a postwar misnomer, spread amongst the modeling world in the 1970’s in Air Comics (aka Air Classics) and furthered in the 1980's like a malignant virus by Squadron Signal's In Action book, whose author didn't have a clue. One of the greatest aircraft misnomers of all time, and one that seems destined to keep on going, unfortunately, fueled by modelers.

The name Invader was a brief attempt (far shorter and of much narrower scope than any book would have you believe) by an A-36 pilot, Lt. Robert B. Walsh, of the 527th FS of the 86th FBG in Italy to petition the USAAF to rename their planes to distinguish it from fighter versions of the Mustang. It seems that newspapers were (correctly) referring to their A-36's as Mustangs in news stories and the 86th FBG pilots wanted to be different. The whole purpose of the USAAF adopting popular names like Mustang, was to avoid divulging specific variant information in press releases, i.e., they didn't want the enemy to know they were facing a specific dive-bomber version. Stars & Stripes related the entire story. The Army turned them down, as the name Invader already belonged to the Douglas A-26, and besides, their planes already had an official name, Mustang.

Most of the current resources on the Mustang have the A-36 name story wrong! I should elaborate. I did a research project in the late 1990’s on this whole Apache thing. What got me going is this: I'm old enough to say that I actually built my first Monogram Phantom Mustang when it was first released. Been in love with Mustangs ever since. All during my model building/aviation research/actual piloting life, I've read lots of Mustang histories, some good, and some bad, and some just plain awful. One day I noted in a photo caption in the book Pursue and Destroy, by Mustang Ace, Col. Kit Carson (actually an excellent Mustang history, nearly Bodie-like) that the Colonel was a bit peeved about the Apache misnomer. He pointed out that the two XP-51's were the only Mustang type airplanes ever to be called Apache. That got me thinking.

Way back in my childhood, slapping together Revell, Monogram and Aurora kits, the earliest Mustang history I recall, the Aurora instruction sheet for the P-51H, had the Apache name thing CORRECT in the little history blurb. I started digging through books and articles (over 120 books and too many magazine articles and model instructions, to mention) were checked. When I was done, a startling thing came to light. Before the 1980's not a single book, pilot manuals included, ever mentioned the A-36 as being an Apache. They all correctly stated that Apache was the first name of the entire P-51 series, and was quickly dropped in favor of Mustang before the first cannon armed P-51's were delivered. What caused this sudden name change? How did the A-36 suddenly assume a name that was dropped before it existed? Well, the 1980's release of the Squadron in Action series booklet on the Mustang is perhaps the most widely read reference, and who relies on this? Us modelers! For reasons that defy explanation, it imaginatively called the A-36 an Apache (probably picked up by the author from similar misnomer use in Air Classics). Well, the Invader name story was a known quantity, even to documenting the name of the pilot who started the petition, but where was this A-36 Apache thing coming from? The In Action's author just didn't have his early Mustang history straight (BTW, in a newer book on the Mustang, he learned of his mistake and stopped calling it Apache). This Squadron Signal P-51 In Action book and its offspring like the Allison Mustang Walk Around have spread that misnomer far and wide to the point that kit makers started calling it Apache. When that happened, it was too late to stop the madness. I once reviewed the test pops of the Acc Min P-51B/C molds for Bill Bosworth of AM. While talking Mustangs, I chided him on AccMin's calling their A-36 kit "Apache." Bill admitted that he knew it was all wrong, but said if they didn't call it Apache, modelers would complain!

Now here is the kicker. The USAF museum itself jumped on the Apache bandwagon. I prepared a letter to Dave Menard of the USAF museum explaining the above in much more detail, and sent copies of the research, including the 1940 magazine ad, cites from various sources, including Edgar Schmued's own papers. They had several big meetings of the museum staff on this. Results: they were embarrassed at spreading dis-information and agreed that my research was right. I asked if they would change the name from Apache to Mustang on their A-36 on display. Dave said if they did it suddenly, they would have a flood of complaint letters. He said they might just quietly remove the Apache name and leave it as just A-36 on the display. Not sure if they have progressed further, but it shows how wide the misnomer has spread. Anyway, thought you might appreciate the full story. There are lots of Mustang falsehoods that have made it into legend. This is one of the worst though!"

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CraigQ

Hi Craig,
Thanks for that! It rather looks like we are mislead by otherwise reliable sources themselves either disinclined to correct earlier errors (the NMUSAF) or themselves mislead (Bill Gunston and Robert F. Dorr). FWIW, we never refer to Squadron Signal publications. I did discuss several points with Juanita, but the name question was never raised.

Negative evidence is always tricky, I appreciate, and I'd point out Michael Vorassi's paper isn't evidence itself, it's the conclusions - the evidence being referred to within it of course.

It would still be interesting to see an A-36 manual where a name would be expected or where 'Mustang' occurs instead. Likewise that 1940 advert. I noted at the time of editing that the crew reports we used referred to A-36s, not Apaches, but put that down to the usual US preference for designation over name - but that was another clue I should've followed...

However a quick online look finds two contemporary references that support Michael's thesis of the name Apache being a NAA owned one, and redundant for the A-36 variant. A search on 'Apache' between 1939 and 1945 on Flight Global comes up with only two relevant pages (and one non-relevant).
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... 45&x=0&y=0

The relevant text reads:

July 23rd 1942.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... rch=Apache


January 21st 1943.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... rch=Apache

The late dates are interesting - well on from 1940, but don't dispute Michael's rationale.

I would agree with Michael that there are a number of myths - and to do specifically with the A-36 version of the Mustang; we caught and I think nailed a few (those 'wired dive brakes' and the Invader from Lt. Walsh saga) but you can't win 'em all, evidently.

I will see what we can do regarding a correction for our book, and I would appreciate copies of any source material in the discussion if you can help - you can get me via PM or though my autosig. And again, looks like Jo Baugher's right again, and I withdraw my earlier comment! Thanks again, Craig.

Regards,

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

James

An email is enroute with a copy of that wartime recognition book reference I mentioned earlier.
In another wartime book, this one a 1944 publication from the UK, it mentions the P-51 is "Sometimes called the Apache". It makes no mention of the A-36 at all.

CraigQ: It sems the NMUSAF has had plenty of time (based on your mention of Dave Menard, who has been retired from there for years) to make the change to delete "Apache". Since your conversation, they've changed the museum signage and added a website, and they still call it "Apache".

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.