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Classic Wings Magazine Luftwaffe Resource Center WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific
Final Cut-The Post War B-17 Flying Fortress and Survivors - 5th Edition


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:27 pm 
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MORE CONVINCING PHOTOS PLEASE! pop2 pop1 ... one has to wonder why wouldn't the fellow who took the photos had taken a few with someone standing next to the machine. Or why not several foot prints around the machine. (I think I see two prints in one photo in lower right corner) I would assume he/she wasn't alone out there. Again ... MORE CONVINCING PHOTOS PLEASE! Just not enough for me to be totally convinced, I'm close but just not there yet. I also wonder if the photographer knew just how significant this find was. Maybe he/she was very nieve to the whole thing and washed it aside as just a bunch of junk hence not too many photos? Just a thought.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:38 pm 
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Dan Jones wrote:
Be careful - the mags are hot! :D

I'm gonna say this is legit. There's no way that the cockpit picture isn't authentic, though it may be from a different airplane. It looks like what we all had been hoping would one day "surface" in the desert. If the cockpit canopy had been closed all these years it's possible that it was buried and then unburied multiple times, but I would guess that it's been sitting just like that for much of the last seventy years. I don't have much experience with blowing sand, but if that had been blowing snow the cockpit would be completely filled up even to the extent of filling up the canopy. The clock is missing, which is a typical souvenir, and it's interesting that the glass on the turn & bank is broken. I'd sure like to know if the guns are still in it. If they're still there then it probably hasn't been visited by anyone "official". As is, it would make a h--- of a display companion for "Black 6".

Unless there is a hole hacked in the top of the wing the guns should be there.
All access is from the bottom of the wing IIRC.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:13 pm 
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Bluedharma wrote:
I have a program that is used for Forensic enhancement...
Here is the photo after it has been enhanced...

I will be removing it from the site soon.

Image
Maybe someone can see some additional detail.

All of the paint on the upper instrument panel is missing or faded, but the lower panel is intact. :roll:

What do you think about the access panels shadow size & shape? Odd that you can't see any part of the opening behind the access panel.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:36 pm 
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I'll vote real until I see otherwise. There are too many subtle imperfections for someone to bother to re-create. I'll also guess that if this is real, then there are more photos and that only the "best" few were posted. Will be neat to see if the RAF chimes in on this.

Ken

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:39 pm 
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In case anyone is interested, here's a link to a PDF copy of the RAF pilots notes for the early Kittyhawk 1, which contains cockpit photos.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/35383492/Pilo ... -Aeroplane

There is a suggestion over on Key that the missing instrument might be the IFF control, and that it would be SOP to remove and destroy it in the event of a forced landing in enemy territory.

I'm still open to being convinced either way on this. If it is a hoax, it is a remarkably convincing one. If it is genuine, it is certainly a singular find. Now where did I put that tin of sharksmouth paint?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:19 pm 
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This is providing us all great entertainment!

Whether it's real or not... it's VERY VERY good.

With a P-40 belly landing it is common to have twisting/crushing damage immediately behind the cockpit, and also very common to tear the prop shaft out of the reduction gearbox.... however, looking at the pictures, if it was real, I would have thought there would be more damage to the front of the engine cowlings where the spinner back plate tore away from them.

The spinner back plate is attached to the engine reduction gearbox & the front of the cowlings attach to the spinner back plate by dzus fasteners. I think there should be signs of more damage to the cowls when the dzus fasteners tore away or broke???

I doubt it but hope I'm wrong.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:25 pm 
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From the second and third photo, it looks like there was a engine fire (???)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:19 pm 
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The close up shot of the access panel, you can see what looks to be wet splattered on it, I would assume the picture takers sweat???? Looks pretty real to me!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:21 pm 
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With the first picture enlarged and some contrast thrown in, you can see a digital square around the vertical stab. I believe this may indicate an altered image.

Image


Last edited by mike furline on Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:24 pm 
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N3Njeff wrote:
The close up shot of the access panel, you can see what looks to be wet splattered on it, I would assume the picture takers sweat???? Looks pretty real to me!

Probably oil splatters from lubing the canopy rails tp open the canopy which had been shut forever.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Wildchild wrote:
From the second and third photo, it looks like there was a engine fire (???)

Exposed to the elements and wind and sand for that long it would probably be worn away like the paint. Oil and such on the exterior would wear away as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:30 pm 
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mike furline wrote:
What do you think about the access panels shadow size & shape? Odd that you can't see any part of the opening behind the access panel.

It's as you'd expect. The door's been twisted to open it, or sprung when the fuselage partly folded at that point. It's obscuring the recess it covers because of the twist (see the area around the hinge for the distortion.)

It's interesting that as well as the two versions of text on it, just visible, the door latching system has been modified twice (it seems) from the original straight lower line.

An earlier post:
Ashley Briggs wrote:
Hi All,
From the details visible of structure detail it does appear to be genuine. With the rivet spacing around the Hydraulic tank access door matching others we have at hand.
This may also be a RAAF 3 or 450 Sqn aircraft. Either way if genuine a fantastic find.
Cheers,
Ash.

Looking at the radio access door area just forward it looks to be a letter S visible so possibly a 260 Sqn RAF machine.

For those not aware, Ash is currently working on a P-40 restoration, and is very familiar with the type.

By the way, I don't think it's been stated so far - it's a Curtiss Kittyhawk Mk.Ia, equivalent to the P-40E.

Regards,

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:34 pm 
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mike furline wrote:
With the first picture enlarged and some contrast thrown in, you can see a digital square around the vertical stab. I believe this may indicate an altered image.

Image


...Hmmmmmmmmm...

Verdy Intrevesting...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:35 pm 
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mike furline wrote:
All of the paint on the upper instrument panel is missing or faded, but the lower panel is intact. :roll:

Seeing how there could be different types of paint, different alloys, maybe even anodizing on the surface of the lower panel could explain the difference.
Paint does funny things. A P-38 I worked on the OD had faded to a pinkish red. You probably would laughed at me if I had posted photos of it.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Wildchild wrote:
mike furline wrote:
With the first picture enlarged and some contrast thrown in, you can see a digital square around the vertical stab. I believe this may indicate an altered image.

Image


...Hmmmmmmmmm...

Verdy Intrevesting...

Wonder if you hit the sharpen image button when messing with a standard photo would do this?

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