Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:42 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Warbird Digest
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 440 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 30  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:26 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 5:42 pm
Posts: 6879
Location: The Goldfields, Victoria, Australia
Jesse C. wrote:
As much as I would love to believe it, I think it is not real. You can manipulate images very easily today and this might be a real good job of a combination of images and some artistic license.

There are a number of checks that are easy to run on suspicious images, and IMHO, this passes them all, except one minor warning flag I mentioned earlier. I don't see anything else to indicate the image is faked.

Good fakes are very rare, and this would need to be very good for no meaningful benefit to a faker. It would need to be faked up for a lot more benefit than laughs if it were this good and fake.

Personally, I am always highly sceptical of new find stories, but I don't 'want' to believe or disbelieve them - I'll just follow the evidence we have for as much of the conclusion as we can draw - in this case, I think it's a genuine, previously unknown wreck, and of great interest.

Regards,

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:26 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:11 pm
Posts: 3160
Location: MQS- Coatesville, PA
51fixer wrote:
Close ups seem real.
Can someone read the cameral data to know if this is scanned from an photo or are the photos from a digital camera?

The cockpit and outside shots are the real deal as far as I can tell. Thebprop coming off can go many directions. The damage on the outboard L/H wing could be from that. Other damage from that could be on the bottom of the fus and be unseen. The front windshield is probably glass and would be very durable for the crash and sitting out in the desert for an extended time.

_________________
Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:40 pm 
Offline
Lance Corporal

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:02 pm
Posts: 35
The front windscreen glass on a P40 is toughened and laminated.
One other interesting point is the empty bracket in the upper left hand corner of the cockpit. This is where the IFF indicator was fitted. So from memory was it not practice to destroy this unit after a forced landing so it would fall into the enemies hands. As I stated all the visible structure externally as well as internally is absolutely correct to the rivet so if a fake it's the best I've ever seen.
And if genuine let's hope it's recovered and cared for in the manner deserving of the aircraft.
Cheers.

_________________
Desoto


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:21 pm 
Offline
Group Captain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:41 pm
Posts: 692
Location: Palm Coast, Florida
I noticed in the pics, there is one that shows the cockpit. Looking at the throttle quadrant, appears that the throttle is full forward as well as the mixture. maybe some out there could ID this as P-40 based upon the TQ and that the spinner having been torn away might be consistent with the TQ lever positions?

_________________
"According to the map, we've only gone 4 inches."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:15 am 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:32 am
Posts: 4239
Location: Battle Creek, MI
I admit I know little about the technical side of things, but I think I read somewhere that on British aircraft the throttle moved in the opposite direction as American (or was that French throttles that were "backwards?") I know this is a US-built aircraft, but did Lend-Lease planes have the controls configured to Brit specs?

This really is an incredible find..does anyone know exactly what country it's in? Hopefully a responsible party will recover the aircraft before the scrappers and souvenir hunters destroy it.

SN


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:17 am 
Offline
Group Captain
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:22 am
Posts: 536
Location: Tampa, Florida
I would think that with google earth this would have been discovered already. But note that I think about it, the sand does shift...

Imagine how many aircraft are burried under the sand in africa now... :drink3:

_________________
My racing will fund my warbirding. Hopefully...

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/#!/ChristopherDeshongRacing
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChrisDRacing


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:21 am 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:11 pm
Posts: 3160
Location: MQS- Coatesville, PA
Steve Nelson wrote:
I admit I know little about the technical side of things, but I think I read somewhere that on British aircraft the throttle moved in the opposite direction as American (or was that French throttles that were "backwards?") I know this is a US-built aircraft, but did Lend-Lease planes have the controls configured to Brit specs?

This really is an incredible find..does anyone know exactly what country it's in? Hopefully a responsible party will recover the aircraft before the scrappers and souvenir hunters destroy it.

SN

Possibly the mixture control.
On Harvard's this is mentioned in the TCDS.

_________________
Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:54 am 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 8:54 am
Posts: 3041
Steve Nelson wrote:
I admit I know little about the technical side of things, but I think I read somewhere that on British aircraft the throttle moved in the opposite direction as American (or was that French throttles that were "backwards?") I know this is a US-built aircraft, but did Lend-Lease planes have the controls configured to Brit specs?

This really is an incredible find..does anyone know exactly what country it's in? Hopefully a responsible party will recover the aircraft before the scrappers and souvenir hunters destroy it.

SN

I suspect you're confusing this with the French Hawk 75s, which did indeed have the throttle operation in the reverse sense.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:02 am 
Offline
Group Captain
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm
Posts: 587
I would say it's real.

I would also venture an observation that when it went down there was considerably more 'sand' between and above the rock surface. Just doesn't seem likely that she could glide into this washboard of rock and not be shredded from the bottom up. Like running your knuckles over a cheese shredder.

She skimmed in on sand and the prop dug in and hit rock snapping the front off. The leading edge of the port wing either hit an exposed rock or (more likely) the prop and cowling as it came off.

There appears to be more sand on what would be the lee side (down wind) (starboard) where wind has not moved the sand.

I think over 70 years the sand has been blown away exposing the rock substrait so that now rather than laying on a "beach" the wreckage is lying in a field of stone. This might be the thing that causes many to believe it is a fake. How would you land a plane with minimum damage on this cheese grater terrain?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:25 am 
Offline
Squadron Leader

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:11 am
Posts: 170
Location: Switzerland
It it's real, I hope this aircraft will be recovered and not be spoilt by a destructive restoration.
In fact, the best thing for it would be to be kept like in the state of the Finnish Buffalo, as a real historical object, not completely reconstructed, with most parts replaced or repainted, like some kind of modern replica.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:56 am 
Offline
Group Captain
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm
Posts: 587
Looking at the prop hub....I see two (2) blades. One is bent backward and one is bent forward with what appears to be equal bend.

Is that the third blade at the starboard wing/forward fuselage root...pointing up at the exhaust manifold?

Question for prop experts. I believe that the stubby end of a prop blade is threaded, no? Could the force of the impact have partly 'unthreaded' the one blade making it appear to be facing the opposite direction of impact?

If there is equal bend on both blades then I would postulate that the prop was windmilling rather than under full power, but that doesn't explain the one prop pointing 'forward'.

I would think that with google earth this would have been discovered already.

Unfortunately GOOGLEARTH doesn't waste a lot of satellite time on uninhabited areas...especially deserts...so you could put a nuclear aircraft carrier out there and the rez would probably be three pixels...just a distorted blob.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:19 am 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 5:42 pm
Posts: 6879
Location: The Goldfields, Victoria, Australia
Steve Nelson wrote:
I admit I know little about the technical side of things, but I think I read somewhere that on British aircraft the throttle moved in the opposite direction as American (or was that French throttles that were "backwards?") I know this is a US-built aircraft, but did Lend-Lease planes have the controls configured to Brit specs?

To elaborate on Mike's answer, French throttles were 'pull for power' not push. British preferences matched US.

However some US-built aircraft intended for French service were diverted to British use with 'pull' throttles, as per French requirements - for instance Grumman F-4 'Wildcat/Martlet' (Actually the G-36A export version), for certain, and probably Martin 167 Marylands, and others. I suspect the throttle system was changed as soon as possible, but the metric instruments remained initially at least.

Before anyone gets sarky about French preferences, the rudder bar & control column system familiar to all today was a Bleriot concept.

None of that has anything to do with Curtiss P-40 family in Commonwealth or RAF service. All the throttle boxes worked the same way, varying only by model. I'd also be wary of drawing any conclusions about control positions - fiddling with the throttle is one of the first things someone would do on encountering such an aircraft.

Pathfinder wrote:
Looking at the prop hub....I see two (2) blades. One is bent backward and one is bent forward with what appears to be equal bend.

Is that the third blade at the starboard wing/forward fuselage root...pointing up at the exhaust manifold?

I'd say the prop is balanced on two blades, one obscured by the angles and the third pointing up. One of the most misinterpreted elements of crash damage is prop blade positions. If the engine is under enough power, it is quite common for blades to be bent forward as the aircraft decelerates; most famously when an aircraft hits the water but gets away with it, the blade tips can often bend forwards. In a crash like this (and I'd agree with your sand /rock analysis) the prop blades could end up pointing in all directions. As to the root and pitch mechanism, you'd expect shear breaks, not unplugging following mechanical structural junctions.

Just a few thoughts,

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:28 am 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 10:14 am
Posts: 1688
Location: canada
It looks real to me and is quite astonishing to see its condition. Remember the sand shifts all the time and this beast could have been buried in a sand dune for the past 70 years...

_________________
Cheers,
Peter

________


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:36 am 
Offline
Pilot Officer

Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 2:14 am
Posts: 119
Location: Pa
I wonder if the British PM could negotiate it's return such as in the Burma Spit's story :wink:

Mark D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:59 am 
Offline
Group Captain
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm
Posts: 587
If you are sitting in the cockpit of a P-40 which way is the prop turning....clockwise or counter-clockwise.....

Posing this question to see if the dislocation of the prop hub could have caused the damage to the left wing leading edge.

Could one prop blade plant itself under a rock and whip the plane so violently that it snapped the shaft and flung the fuselage a short distance away. Could she have skidded 'backwards' after losing the hub?

Considering the very short distance between the parts it seems like the loss of the hub and the final resting place happened incredibly quickly.

The roundel appears to be a Type A.1 which was in service until July 1942. The replacement Type A.2 featured a narrower outer yellow band.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 440 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 30  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], Michel Lemieux, quemerford and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group