Warbird Information Exchange

Shay

If Matt wants to talk to me, I might be happy to clear up half of the rubbish that has been reported after the news broke in the UK.

regards

Mark

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'Coups De Foudre'
(511FS, 405FG watering hole), St Dizier, France 1944/45

Some more on the story in the Daily Telegraph today

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/worl ... otten.html



The discovered Kittyhawk, according to my sources, is almost certainly that of 24-year-old Flight Sergeant Dennis Copping, who went missing on June 28. It seems that the day before, he damaged his plane in combat and that he and the squadron commander then had a disagreement in which Copping’s competence was questioned.
Such things happened; pilots were flying up to six sorties a day at this time – twice as many as most flew in the Battle of Britain – and by then were exhausted, physically and mentally. The intensity of the combat combined with the heat of the desert made it an especially harsh and hostile environment in which to live, fly, and fight.
Copping was ordered to fly his plane to a repair and salvage unit a short distance up the coast. Because his radio was out and his undercarriage fixed in the down position, he was accompanied by one of the squadron’s pilots, who immediately realised Copping had taken a dramatically wrong course. Despite frantic waving, Copping flew on, his friend eventually turning back in despair.
Copping was never seen again and remains missing, although the Historic Casualty Cell hopes to find him. Something in him must have snapped that day, but what a terrible, desperate end – alone, hungry, thirsty. Abandoned in a foreign land. No one went to search for him. How could they? I’ve been to the Western Desert and it’s a truly vast place. That far south, Copping would have had no chance.

Can anyone explain the dark rectangular area surrounding the exhaust stacks on both sides?

Duane

Mossie

Lets break this down

The discovered Kittyhawk, according to my sources, is almost certainly that of 24-year-old Flight Sergeant Dennis Copping, who went missing on June 28. (Assume he is reading Key and Wix as his sources and it is still not 100% certain!) It seems that the day before, he damaged his plane in combat and that he and the squadron commander then had a disagreement in which Copping’s competence was questioned. ("It seems" does not sound very positive. Day before the mission went without incident. no combat damage whereas three were damaged on the morning of 28th and two of them were flown to 53RSU). Nothing in relevant log books or squadron records and about this tiff, as the pilot cannot defend himself and the family of Copping might read it - how relevant is it. Sounds like embellashing to me!)
Such things happened; pilots were flying up to six sorties a day at this time – twice as many as most flew in the Battle of Britain – and by then were exhausted, physically and mentally. The intensity of the combat combined with the heat of the desert made it an especially harsh and hostile environment in which to live, fly, and fight. (They were not flying 6 missions every day. In June 42 they flew operationally for 22 of the 31 days. Generally it was 2 missions a day on these but in the middle of the month they were doing 5/6 missions though not all pilots were doing this. The squadron had more pilots than planes so there was a rotation. Doubt any pilot flew six, more likely 3/4 but still a lot).
Copping was ordered to fly his plane to a repair and salvage unit a short distance up the coast. (Sounds like he had no choice but more likely experienced pilots. They were suppose to be there and back the same day so not really an R&R trip!) Because his radio was out and his undercarriage fixed in the down position, he was accompanied by one of the squadron’s pilots, who immediately realised Copping had taken a dramatically wrong course. Despite frantic waving, Copping flew on, his friend eventually turning back in despair. (Both aircraft were damaged and flying as a pair is also a good option in desert and with damage. Have not seen evidence the radio was not working?? Why did it seem to be outside the airframe when found if they pilot was not trying to get it working to do a mayday?)
Copping was never seen again and remains missing, although the Historic Casualty Cell hopes to find him. Something in him must have snapped that day, but what a terrible, desperate end – alone, hungry, thirsty. Abandoned in a foreign land. No one went to search for him. How could they? I’ve been to the Western Desert and it’s a truly vast place. That far south, Copping would have had no chance.
(So now his writing about his state of mind, something we will never know. Something happened, that we know off. Pilots can be fixated by instruments above anything else. Doubt we will ever know).

Its a shi77y article that a family member might read.

Mark

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'Coups De Foudre'
(511FS, 405FG watering hole), St Dizier, France 1944/45

I totally agree, completely written on speculation.

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[Thread title is ridiculous btw]

Not to take anything away from the story of the pilot, but if this is the airplane that it's thought to be, does anyone have any specific history on the a/c? Was it "Stocky" Edwards personal aircraft or...?

Any news on it's current disposition?

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Defending Stearmans on WIX since Jeff started badmouthing them back in 2005.

Why would they fly an airplane that had been all shot up, and with gear down, to a repair depot with all the added weight of that ammo?

And why was the pilot in a trance, ignoring all of the wingmans' maneuvers and signals? Shell-shock, engine fumes?

The speculation that it may be Edward's aircraft came from an article that Vintage Wings of Canada posted on their website.
The original article, written a little over enthusiastically, suggested the connection and has since been edited and corrected.
Even though it appears that the aircraft has the same call letters as worn on one of Stocky's aircraft, research has found that somewhere in the amount of 12 RAF P40's carried those codes.
At this point there is absolutely no evidence that he ever flew this particular P40.
I must admit though it would be fantastic if it did end up being one that he had flown in the past.
Apparently Edward's has been contacted and feels he is not connected with the particular aircraft or the incident.
Once the identity of the aircraft ( ie serial number) is confirmed , I am sure we will see a floodgate of info from researchers.
More importantly , hopefully the pilots remains can be recovered and given the burial he deserves.
All said a fantastic discovery that I hope survives long enough to be rescued before the scavengers get to it.

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...it was a plane adrift beneath the moon moving serenely thru beams like an angel of the night .....fair as a song ........aloof from mortal dreams

And now, with fleet16b's post, the mystery deepens and I wonder....what else is still "out there"...?

Dan and George

These answers are IF this aircraft is ET574

Dan - the general aircraft history is pretty much known from the date built to the date lost (including all numbers for the airframe), the more refined details such as which pilot mostly flew it, which pilot flew it when damaged etc and number of sorties undertaken is not so well know due to the poor records of 260 SQN at the time (during my research into Desert Kittyhawk Units 260SQDN is by far the worst set of records of all the Units).

George -

The aircraft was flying from a front line base to a MU for repair, however this was still inside the combat zone, and even though the U/C was locked down on ET574, by loading ammo it gave the pilot a fighting chance should he be intercepted by enemy aircraft (remember here that the Allies were retreating). The fact the aircraft was flying to the RSU was simply for expediency, and actually happened a fair bit. If the aircraft could fly back it would, thus giving RSU Salvage units the task of only picking up birds that could not fly (be they down in the desert or on a LG). Additionally the distance was approx. 150 miles (rough estimate), or about 35-40 mins flying even with the damage to the airframes, so certainly not far either.

To the last part of the question, I cannot nor do I doubt that anyone here can give you the answers you seek. I think we can just leave it that something happened and the pilot flew the wrong course. Anything further to that is total conjecture and would not value add to the discussion.

buz

...... and even though the family saw the article first in the Telegraph, their story is in the Daily Mail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... death.html

He was Dennis not Denis.

The Kittyhawk in the pic is a British ordered example and not the one on the Desert. Learn that from Buz.

There are other pics but no log book which does not surprise me.

regards

Mark

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'Coups De Foudre'
(511FS, 405FG watering hole), St Dizier, France 1944/45

Hi Buz
Early on in the discussions (on here or FP) I seem to remember (possibly wrongly) that it was at LG-106 and was meant to go to LG-009 which was only 25 west, the location as found is in the general direction of LG-185 (570 miles SSW) which was also know as LG-9 and may be he was heading for there ?

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Martin
Wide open & turning left.

Duane - as no-one better qualified has stepped in... It's the heavier gauge metal (steel? stainless steel?) to resist the heat from the exhaust stubs.

Regards,

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Well, firstly, I am very happy to admit that my initial opinion on whether it is real or not looks like was wrong.



The dark rectangular area is stainless steel surrounding the exhaust stubs, the rest of the cowling is aluminium.

(JDK - was typing this reply when your post came through)

Jason

Mark(Shepsair), From those original plots of Point of Departure to Point of Intended Arrival, the correct track would have been roughly parrallel to and not too distant from the coast. From memory the point of Departure was less than 10nm from the coast. Keeping the coastline in sight, or veering left occasionally to sight the coast would have been the prudent action.
Is it recorded who was flying the aircraft which were damaged on the morning reconaisance mission?

Have we confirmed the post about Copping doing a hard landing in the same P-40 the evening before?

Mossie, Where does your information about the Pilots relations with his CO come from?

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"If that's a goddamn 'Jug' in front of me, you sure as hell better wiggle your wings." 80FS/8FG Cape Gloucester, December 1943. And the entire 41st Fighter Squadron rocked their wings.

ALWAYS LOOKING FOR P-38 PARTS