Warbird Information Exchange

There's been no reliable information (and I suspect there won't be until progress is achieved from current planning) further to the rather depressing video Peter posted.

Regards,

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

It would appear an airman's remains have been found.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... 21&page=36

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It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

Dan,

As I mentioned, lets be very cautious until there is some official confirmation.

regards

Mark

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'Coups De Foudre'
(511FS, 405FG watering hole), St Dizier, France 1944/45

What are we being "very cautious" about?

What should we do if there is unofficial confirmation or official non-confirmation?

Accuracy.

Already with this saga (no pointed fingers) some people took a reasonable conclusion from evidence available at a reasonable stage of informal, but apparently sound investigation, and reached an erroneous conclusion.

Authorities are far from infallible, but in cases like this they have a mandate and tools to arrive at more reliable conclusions than any amount of 24hour news cycle urgency demands.

What difference does it make if we have to practice patience for a few days or weeks over something that doesn't actually affect our lives at all, if that allows the correct conclusions to be given which does affect those who've lost a relative in the war? None. Patience remains a virtue even for this everythingnow generation.

Apologies for the lecture,

Regards,

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Heaven forbid but we, as a community, could apply a bit of common courtesy and allow officialdom to do their jobs. Just because they were found nearby it doesn't make them Identified as anything other than what they are. Let us wait and let the system do its job......as we pay for and support them to do.

Far too many people these days "go off half cocked" (us oldies actually know what that means), and discuss the ins and outs of all sorts of topics, with little or no regard for anything or anybody. It was like that when as soon as a possible ID for this aircraft was given in the first place. Things went from not even getting the correct sub type of P-40, to sub type, then ID, but no-one bothered to actually think about the family finding out before officialdom could get to them and give them the answers.

I don’t know if true or not but maybe someone could help, did the family find out by the RAF doing their job and getting a 100% correct ID for the aircraft, then telling the family, or did they find out via someone pointing them to all the discussion on the web about the find, and the ID branded about, which whilst based of some logic and investigation, was yet to be confirmed via positive and correct Identification methods. I hope in this case that the RAF can get to the family quickly and at least give them a heads up (proved or not) before they find 1000 pages of "discussion" on the web this time.

Buz

I absolutely agree that caution and restraint is called for in this case. As pointed out in the current instant-gratification world we live in everyone want s news now and everything is a movie-of-the-week proposed and settled in 90 minutes with commercials.

Having had some experience with aircraft excavation involving an MIA I am in awe of this team trekking the desert and the incredible find they made. My experience was in Belgium on a field resembling a billiard table, with a bathroom and civilian amenities less than 50 meters away and a town full of bars and restaurants only a short drive away! Finding exposed remains on a moonscape in an area the size of Texas is phenomenal!

I also assisted JPAC in locating relatives of the crew popularized by the media as "the Ice man" lost in the Sierra Nevada glacier. A lot of this rapid and erroneous research is media driven. I was contacted by CNN/LA when they learned that I had found the sister of one of the casualties. She was 94 years old! They wanted to interview her on the find...regardless of the fact that he had not been identified as her brother! They insisted I give them the contact, offering to triple my research fee...! I said I would not give them the information for any amount of money...."But we're CNN...".... I don't give a go**amn who you are...the military has protocols in place to deal with this situation and it is their job to do it, not CNN...they hung up.

I do believe that we as historians with specialized interest areas can be a value to the officials charged with making the final determinations. It is regrettable that they don't always call on us for assistance and can themselves come to erroneous conclusions. We speak a language and in a mindset 70 years old--and it is often the case that the people charged with making "official" determinations are not as well versed in the subject they are tasked with as we are.

The forensic reference to the remains does not mention a skull. So the potential for speculation will become more gruesome--and regrettably more sensational. And with that the wish for "caution and patience" is even more necessary, but is more likely to be ignored for the sake of the sensational story...right or wrong.

Sometimes even fiction provides us a guide to deal with fact....

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”~~~ Sherlock Holmes (in Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s “A Scandal in Bohemia,” 1891).

Well now that's a "first" coming from you James Now I can retire from WIX knowing I finally heard it all .... haha, just funnin with ya. Actually if it wasn't for guys like you contributing a sense of "logic and self-control" to the many threads that could, and at times, do spiral out of common-sense control we would probably have much more anarchy and chaos than we do. And it also keeps guys like me from getting into trouble with the management. haha

So what's the latest news on the P-40 itself. Has it been moved yet? I've been out of the loop on any updates.

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[Thread title is ridiculous btw]

The article on the search operation mentions the plane still in the desert as of June 16th, and suffering continued vandalism (most of the canopy glass and instrument faces have been smashed, and someone has tried to remove at least one cowl panel.)


The article says the team left the remains in situ..I take that to mean they just examined what was on the surface and didn't attempt to excavate anything, leaving that task to the specialists (very commendable.) There may very well be more remains under the sand.

SN

RIP Dennis Copping - missing today, 70 years ago.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... p?t=117756

RIP

Mark

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'Coups De Foudre'
(511FS, 405FG watering hole), St Dizier, France 1944/45

I am not a pathologist, but have had to read up on anatomy in order to address findings in IDPFs associated with MIAs and casualties.

While I read in this forum how some can identify the model of a plane based on the size and shape of a rivet, I thought it would be educational to detail what the search team found in their search for the pilot. This is the translation of the information posted by one of the search team who appears to be a doctor.

"From my experience as a medical doctor I did not take long to identify the remains as certainly human: a few ribs, four vertebrae (seventh cervical, two thoracic and one lumbar), a complete left clavicle, a metatarsal and a phalanx."

There are 206 bones in the human body (208 is occasionally referenced and is a matter of how a certain set are counted)

There are 24 ribs (12 to a side) and 10 per side are attached to the sternum (middle of your chest) the lower four are termed "floating".
The report indicates " a few ribs". Not very specific. But as there are four individual rib bones not attached to the sternum, and those would likely be removed if the body was disturbed by animals, we might presume that those observed are attached to the sternum, and as pointed out above, additional remains may be below grade and not visible.

There are 33 individual bones that comprise the spinal cord....vertebrae. These are divided into four groups from the base of the skull to the tail bone.

Of these 33 the report indicates that he observed four (4) vertebrae.

Of the uppermost group--cervical--he observed the "seventh" of 8. These bones measure roughly from the base of your neck between your shoulders (8) to the base of the skull (1). The lower of which you can feel as the lump just below your neck. (The "seventh" cervical vertebrae is a very specific bone, and it is interesting that he itemizes that one and only enumerates the others.)

The report references "two thoracic" vertebrae. The thoracic group consists of 12 bones from lower neck to lower-mid back. He observed two not indicating any proximate detail.

The report indicates observation of "one lumbar" vertebrae this is one of the five largest of the mid-to-lower back bones.

Five bones comprise the sacral group (lower pelvis to tail bone) and none are referenced as observed.

"...a complete left clavicle" is the collar bone extending from your adam's apple to your shoulder.

"a metatarsal" is one of the five bones comprising the part of the foot between your ankle and leading to your toes. It is interesting that there are foot bones--but no evidence of a shoe.

"a phalanx" is one of several bones attached to each toe. The "toe" technically being the very tip of each. There is 1 phalanx attached to the big toe. Two phalanx on each of toes 2 thru 4, and three phalanx attached to the small toe. So the observation is nonspecific. Again, there are footbones but no reference to a shoe.

None of these bones individually can give forensic detail as to the age or height of the decedent. In another posting by the team leader he indicates further expeditions where they might hopefully find "a femur". This indicates a good forensic background as the femur (thigh bone)--the single large bone between hip and knee--is generally considered the best for determining age and height. These are important indicators as to the identity of the individual short of finding a DNA sample. DNA does degrade over time.

The most positive identifier would be the maxilla (upper teeth) and mandible (jaw bone) as dental charts would have details specific to the individual. Of course these are attached to the skull and that was not referenced.

Given the identification of the cervical vertebrae and the clavicle, one might hope that these bones proximate to the neck might lead to locating his identity discs.

Not a great deal to go on based on the initial observations by the team, but incredible in that they found anything in that vast expanse of desert.

If the Mods think this clinical post is offensive given that this is the anniversary date of his loss, please remove it.

Myself I don't find it offensive at all..on the contrary it's quite fascinating. I've always been amazed by how much can a forensic anthropologist can determine about a person's identity/physiology from just a few skeletal remains. I'm curious: I know that viable DNA has been recovered from similar bone fragments found at tropical or temperate crash sites..would the same be true of such dessicated remains exposed to a desert environment for 70 years?

As long as the tone of the discussion stays respectful, I don't see why it shouldn't continue.

SN

...dessicated remains exposed to a desert environment for 70 years?

The recovery of any form of DNA is problematic, and not necessarily based on environmental conditions. The only way to confirm that you get it is to run the test for it. Depending on the amount of remains you have this may or may not be practical since you basically have to destroy the sample to get a result. If you get a result then the conditions did not degrade it. If you don't then you can theorize that the conditions led to the deterioration. Viable samples have come from mummified remains thousands of years old, while newer remains have yielded nothing. MtDNA is a strain inherited from the female line of your family and used to match samples in the geneological pool of next-of-kin. Other forms of DNA can be used to determine ethnicity. JPAC usually likes to proof based on MtDNA samples.

The Italian team has been more than generous with the description of the remains found. I can pretty much guarantee you that when the "officials" get involved you won't hear a thing about particulars. Even if they find the pilot's tags, they will hold back on a positive id until they can correlate other evidence. Sad but true, this could take years. The Ice Man case was media driven and it took nearly a year to make the identification. I kind of wish the Italian team goes back and does a wider area search near the found remains that might unearth some additional evidence--not necessarily more bones...but buttons, personal gear or his tags.

Not to trivialize the pilots final moments, but the close-up of the location shown in the photos puts me in mind of the Tommy Lee Jones character at the end of Space Cowboys...propped up against a rock formation looking out into oblivion.

Don't feel bad..that was actually the first image the popped into my mind as well.

SN

An Update:

Found it here:
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent ... te-to.aspx