Col. Rohr NHC Ideas

Jiggersfromsphilly · **Joined:** Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:15 pm **Posts:** 951

Sir,

There is a website that has been used before for this type of effort. I suggest that you visit

WWW.PetitionOnline.com

Thank You for all you do

Virgil Hiltz

Mark_Pilkington · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:44 am

Rob, I think the problem is there is about 3 other threads elsewhere in this forum that we are all waiting for you to comment in lol,

I just posted in one of the others, I agree we need Scott to sticky this one and all discuss in here, I will assist in the petition draft if you like, I operated a successful one of 11,000 signatures in 3 months back in 1998 for the Save Point Cook battle, and will write supporting letters as templates for you to finish off??

regards

Mark Pilkington

Quote:

Rob,

I saw your post on FP, please copy a similar version here,

as stated earlier, I support you on this, the recovery of the buffalo itself, is not the cause, simply a tangible example to work through to demonstrate the overall problem, I agree wholeheartedly that heritage does not stop at a simple date or year line in the sand of "civil war" or not, or for here is Australia, "convict/colonial" or not, and unfortunately for us aviation is now only 100 years "young" meaning that for aviation heritage as seen by others is assumed to only mean "steam powered aeroplanes".

The main goal still remains, as you correctly state, to highlight, argue challenge and change NHC's policy of letting historic aircraft rot to white powder on the obttom of the sea, rather than recover and stabilise them, or allow others to recover them for display etc, it is more value to the American public to be able to walk past the broken remains of the Buffalo on dry land "somewhere" for the next 30 years, than to know it is safely rotting away on the seabed for the next 30 years and still not there under either outcome in 40 years time.

At least recovered onto land at someones expense, may allow someone to preserve it more longer term or put it to some better use that fish shelter and artificial reef?

There is the in the "warbird" market, the resources etc that will willingly do this if permitted to recover viable aircraft, the larger "assets" managed by NHC - ships, carriers, submarines - wrecked/scuttled whatever, will most likely remain on the bottom regardless of anyone's wishes, capabilities or intentions to save them in a better way? and therefore like the Titanic slowly rot away to rubble too.

A logical argument and a show of numbers through a petition, all put in front of the US Media and Politicians will change policy rapidly.

regards

Mark Pilkington

- let me know where I sign, or who I write a letter to??
_________________
20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

Jiggersfromsphilly · **Joined:** Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:15 pm **Posts:** 951

The ideas you express cover a broad agenda. If I may ask, what would be the prioities in bringing to fruition this agenda. In other words , where do we start? The petition is a sound idea. What institutions and agencies should we write to? Who are the friendly Congressman and Senators who would help? I would think that a framework or a committee would be a good start also. Any ideas?

Mark_Pilkington · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:22 am

Jiggers,

I think Rob would be keen to have you on board on that committee to help devleop thos ideas

regards

Mark Pilkington

Mark_Pilkington · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:29 am

Rob, everyone,

I have taken the liberty of putting a link message in the other 3 older threads requesting we dont post in those anymore and bring all of the debates into this thread, and again ask Scott to consider making this one a sticky and official effort supported by the forum, as long as Scott can be convinced by ALL of US! that we will not create any moral or legal liabilities for the site by becoming un-proffessional in anything we do under this banner? and project.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Forgotten Field · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:11 am

Couple of points about what you are writing and about what I wrote earlier:

1. This is a WIX project, not EAA, not FAA, not AOPA, not major museums, not anything other than a WIX project done by members here.
Trust me, those other organizations have their own agenda and it doesn't always have much to do with corrosion that is not flying.... I'm not saying anything negative about them, just that our organization has a more appropriate focus for the job we have at hand; we are the WIX, and we move info around to accomplish aviation heritage preservation in a depth of ways those organizations could never think of.

2. The focus you are talking about is too broad. I sorta thought we picked the Midway F2A you talked about. You didn't mention it at all in what you said.

3. What we need is a list of people to start letter writing to, and a consistent message about what we want to do, as suggested and outlined in one of my posts. And it is not about all the problems with corrosion sitting on the bottom of the sea and not being recovered, but is about why the USN spent a zillion dollars to retrieve a non-US provenanced airplane for their collection (Pekuri's B339) when they had one on US property they could have been exploring for the last 20 years (the Marion Carl F2A).

4. This is a LEAD-IN to the bigger picture, and will expose all the workings, players, etc, and be DOCUMENTED in writing by the responses volunteers will receive here from their written inquiries. This will give us a basis to make recommendations as an organization (WIX) for repair of OFFICIAL government operations entrusted with the preservation and recovery of warbirds, specifically from the standpoint of the Midway F2A. AT A MINIMUM, a letter writing campaign, with a petition as circulated by us (although I think that would not be as effective as a letter writing campaign, and would have trouble reaching 5 million signatures), would prep us for WIX project #2, which could be the PBM they trashed in the lake, or some other signifigant aircraft which they have overlooked for obscure reasons and which WE FEEL as an organization they should be expending resources attempting to locate/evaluate/recover. These problems are not exclusive to the USN, but are global problems when it comes to Warbird Recovery, and addressing them project by project through the WIX is something we can do with good organization and leadership.

Hey, I'm not criticizing you for dreaming big, but I am trying to keep you focused on a simple first project that many people can participate in without getting busy with tons of paperwork or phone calls. We can publicly document here on WIX every step of this project, pass the information around to interested parties by telling them about what is going on here on the WIX, and when we get first glimpse back in writing, pick a new tack to go on based on their response. Ultimately, if nothing else, it will focus them on the Midway F2A, and if we persist, will probably get them to do something about it, at a minimum research it and see what it looks like.

Am I making sense? In my next post, I'm going to write a sample letter which I will solicit comment on to perfect as the prototype instrument of our efforts, along with some explanations of why I am choosing my words.

Mark_Pilkington · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:32 am

yes you are making sense, the midway F2A is the working example to raise media, public, political interest over, (unless Rob knows something better??) the fact this F2A may well now be actually too far gone is part of the working example, - it may not have been 20 years ago, and then who has gone to look and see from the NHC in anycase??, and if its not a war grave, perhaps a warbirder group may be interested in recovering it to use it as an id plate, pattern shi with access to the Pensacola airframe from Russia?

We dont need to answer argues of is it really worth recovering, the question is - was it, is it still, what is the NHC doing about it?? and why does their blanket policy stop others doing anything??

If the F2A is inspected and attracts someones interest out of our publicity/petition etc then we actually get a double wammy of outcome in any case.

But I do agree this is best started small - here on wix, and let it grow, if its logical, proffessional and defendable it will grow in any case of its own accord

- "if you build it they will come"? I am not sure 5 million signatures will be needed to capture peoples attention, I suspect 100,000 would be more than enough to get you sitting in fornt of a table with someone of importance?, and once the media starts reporting it the petition hits will accelerate.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Forgotten Field · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:37 am

Remember, it is a sample letter, and I am soliciting comments about it and how to use it- more comments at the bottom

SAMPLE LETTER: IF YOU HAVE VOLUNTEERED TO PARTICIPATE, PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS LETTER UNTIL IT HAS A FINAL FORM AS APPROVED BY ALL PROJECT PARTICIPANTS, AND WE HAVE CHOSEN WHERE TO SEND IT!

HON. Jane or John Q Senator
Washington DC, 20001

Sir or Madam

1. I am writing to you as a member of an internet aviation preservation group, the Warbird Information Exchange (WIX), to ask for your support in our first project. The WIX has chosen as a group to advocate for the recovery of a 1941 Brewster F2A Buffalo, an aircraft which was lost prior to the Battle of Midway in 1942. We have chosen this aircraft to focus on as a project due to its rarity, the famous pilots who operated it, and due to the relative ease with which it may be located and evaluated for possible preservation. Members of our organization have done some initial research of this aircraft and its disposition, and we would like to contribute to the ultimate care and preservation of this aircraft. At present, records indicate that the aircraft lies in US territory, under 35 feet of water near (wherever, I don't remember).

2. To assist us in this endeavor, we request that you make official inquiries to the Naval Historical Center, through the Secretary of the Navy, to initiate plans for public participation, research, and possible recovery and preservation of this aircraft. We ask this with the knowledge that the Naval Historical Center was informed of this aircraft's location nearly 20 years ago and has done very little to ascertain its condition. We also know that while the aircraft was not evaluated initially for recovery, its historic signifigance should make it a higher priority in the purview of the operations of the NHC. We also know that public funds may not be adequate for the ultimate cost of the preservation of this aircraft, and that we as an organization are willing to work towards our goals in concert with the NHC.

3. For further information on our efforts, please visit our website http://www.robrohrsdream.org, or contact me on my home or cell phone.
Thank you very much for taking the time to consider this issue of historic preservation.

4. Contact information for you, the WIX, and the website

Regards,
Your signature

END OF SAMPLE LETTER

Okay, I solicit comments, suggestions, and criticism. We just need someone to aim our missives (pun intended) correctly (That's your job, Rob) and we can get started, once this thing is edited and all agree to its content.

Mark_Pilkington · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:53 am

To clarify my thoughts I have copied below a posting I put forward in one of the earlier threads

The first issue to be decided, with Robs input, is "is" the F2A the best wreck to use as the working example / test case?? or is there a better "test case" to use?

Then we determine what we are asking to be done??

ie?? We want the NHC to manage the long term future of its underwater aircraft assets better than currently leaving them to rot away in the next 20 - 30 years?? and we want to see them prove that by starting with a project to review the situation of the F2A??? and develop an action plan and implement it?? as a first of many such reviews of other aircraft wrecks that are not known war graves??? and then we want them to survey and take a position on those remaining aircraft and determine if they will recover them for themselves or National American Collections, or allow others (with strict criteria) to recover them instead of NHC??

and if the NHC wont do that, we will ask government to compell them, and if they wont compell them we will ask the media to "encourage" both

Then we create a petition that supports that outcome??

Then we write letters en-mass to nominated Government officials, agencies etc and media outlets promoting our cause and wanted outcome?

Then when the petition is big enough we "deliver" it - Capitol Hill, Director of NHC?, Secretary of the Navy?? Rumsfeld?? thats best determined by Rob and others who are state-side?

If the petition is to be tabled within the House of reps there will be formal requirements on the petition - US citizens?? real pen signatures and addresses?? etc that may make the electronic one invalid??

all of that needs to be investigated and decided??

regards

Mark Pilkington

Quote:

Rob, (& Scott?)

As I said earlier, "so what do you want us to do?, how do we help"?

I dont think we should all simply be sitting here, individually just agreeing with you (as we all sit alone in front of our PC's spread around the world) that NHC doing nothing for 20 years is a problem, what we should consider is what is our solution.

WIX appears to have many energetic, well informed regulars, and many more passing through visitors, who I am sure are united in the idea of preserving our (mankinds) heritage, and in particular rescueing certain types from extinction. (flying or even static)

"WIX PROJECT"??????

WIX has spoken of a "project" for a long time, and I dont for a second propose that WIX tries to fund this recovery or restore it, and no one is yet sure this a/c is worth recovering in any case.

However if Scott was to make this post a sticky, and make this a/c the "mascot" PROJECT of WIX, whereby WIX members write to government representatives, NHC, etc en-masse, I am sure we could put pressure on to achieve "something"?

If there is a logical outcome, and enough people jump up and down about the problem, then government (or media) will listen.

I have had a similar result in a 7 year campaign in another heritage issue with a similiar defence entity to NHC. - People Power, and the Might of the Pen can work, the "email" CC: works even better!!

Rob could be the Project Manager, and he is already progressing to give us a full brief of what this a/c is , and where it is, and why its important.

He could complete that briefing and then launch the project by telling us who to write to, and then meeting/communicating directly with NHC and giving us update of success or progress of our efforts.

WIX members can get other friends and enthusiasts to sign an electronic petition here on the WIX Board, or send their own surface mail letters to the influencers Rob points us at.

Perhaps WIX and its members could put pressure on NHC to achieve > :

? the first should be a physical inspection and photographic documentation of its condition and situation.

? consideration of the viability of recovery by "anyone"?

? clarification of this a/c role in the National Heritage collections of the US Government?

? release to other interested parties to recover if it is viable to recover buty not wanted by a National Institution.

? Encouraging a bonefide group to recover it for display in a bonefide museum?

? leave it to become a war grave or historic artifact where it is and rot away.

In WIX adopting this a/c and issue as a "project", WIX could allow many to actually achieve something in aviation heritage (seperate to just armchair or internet interests in active warbirds), and this would in affect be a test case to Rob's long argued positions anyway???

we dont know what can be achieved if we dont try,
but its certain we will achieve nothing, if we dont try anything.

I have enough projects on my plate already, but I will sign a petition, or write one or more letters to where-ever the should go to make a difference for this specific cause, and the wider issues behind it.

does anyone else agree??

Or are we all actually going to be part of the problem too, by also not doing anything?

regards

Mark Pilkington

wendovertom · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:29 am

I'm on board! Rob - please PM me regarding a petition.

Tom P.

Jiggersfromsphilly · **Joined:** Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:15 pm **Posts:** 951

As we all know Success has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan.

I agree that a specific plan of attack be adopted to raise or locate restore, one specific aircraft. The basics that develop from that campaign can then be a framework for a larger ambitious campaign. In other words a test run or trial to shake out the cobwebs, find out who is serious, and give the group an idea of what it will take to engage a worldwide effort.

Momentum will build, I know that the press is always the answer, however they want a story with some meat before they will do anything. It pays their bills. Another source in dealing with change is who among us is a major, or connected to major, political campaign donors? No bucks , No Buck Rogers. Amazing what a word to a pol will do if it comes from someone with a thick checkbook.

Previous experience with Capitol Hill says that a HAND writtten letter by a Rep's constituent is the best message. It says that they took the time and have a intrest in the subject to do it. There are companies that can grind out mass mailings that barrage the Hill and the staffs are savy to them.

The recent developments with postal service to the Hill and the need for security make it imperative that the addresses that are for the Home district or state be used before anything is sent to the Hill. It is much speedier and more effective.

The Congress of the US has quite an effective way of sorting mail by issues and policy and there is a need for a one term or slogan label to ID the mail we send so as not to dilute the issue among several catagories.

Electronic comunications with the Hill are realy the Lazy way out! They are basically ignored as a lower level staffer will be dealing with them and they can be generated by the ton almost instantly.

The need for a one name title will help bring the issue to the attention of the senior staffer who will be in a position to address it with the Rep. Remember that the Rep rarely reads any of the general mail and that which he does is selected for the most part for him by his trusted aides.

It is good to also find out the name of the staffer who is in charge of said issue and to write to them also, as they handle the specific comunications and can be of great aid when something is needed.

Just some preliminary thoughts!

Jiggers

Originalboxcar · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:56 am

Constructive suggestions.

Hopefully this "WTF" demeanor will not be present during this "project". Professionalism needs abound otherwise no one will take this serious.

Before anything else is accomplished, a project charter (defining what we are trying to do) needs to be finalized as well as defining the project cost (i.e. resources), time and scope.

From there, the "project manager" (i take it that this is Rob Rohr) can delegate responsibilities.

regards,

t~

Forgotten Field · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:45 am

...than earlier posts with certain Canadian aircraft...

Great ideas all, and looking to the resolution of what we are going to do. As I stated, I am more for a direct letter writing campaign, and am willing to do some writing on behalf of the WIX project, as I am hoping this will become.

As for the important people out there, I have one here in MD that has good inroads to the politicians, is well respected, and is a retired USMC officer. I'll see if he'll come on board with us on Sunday if I see him, and will get back to the board.

airnutz · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:37 pm

"an airplane resting in 35 feet of warm salt water for 60 years is little more
than sand.."
..finally the voice of reason, Thanks Taras!

Jiggersfromsphilly · **Joined:** Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:15 pm **Posts:** 951

Regardless of the specific project, I think we are in agreement that the task is to change Navy policy. Taras suggests a form of the Col John Boyd OODA loop as a basis for this movement. I agree. I hope that the overall objectives of a movement of this sort are not bogged down by secondary differences.

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