If you held an "Authentic B-25 Contest"

[richkolasa]

No love for "Yankee Warrior" on this thread? That'd be my pick. One of only two with a rear-fuselage turret flying, that I can think of. Not sure what's inside her, but from the outside she looks pretty authentic.

Rich

[rwdfresno]

To update my previous picks:

I have had the opportunity to be around a lot of B-25s over the years and have crawled through or flown in dozens. I believe these are my ranking of aircraft by authenticity. I have listed pros and cons from the perspective of accuracy, certainly not a knock on any of the aircraft, all of which are beautiful, well taken care of, and flying (except for "How Boot That" but it is "flyable" I suppose)

Top 5
1. 44-30254 FHC aircraft:(pros: Very accurate restoration to factory standards, Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, Bendix turret, nearly all factory equipment installed; cons: lacks 3 piece pilot window frame)
2. 44-28925 "How 'Boot That" (pros: documented combat history, Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, markings original to the aircraft, Bendix turret, nearly all factory equipment installed; cons: painted silver not natural aluminum)
3. 43-28059 "Apache Princess" (pros: nearly all factory equipment installed, Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, Bendix turret, paint and markings accurate to documented WWII aircraft; cons: nose art modified to include Kermit's wife's face)
4. 45-8835 "Betty's Dream" (pros: nearly all factory equipment installed, Holley carb intakes, Bendix turret, paint and markings accurate to documented WWII aircraft; cons: collector ring, lacks 3 piece pilot window frame)
5. 44-29939 "Briefing Time" (pros:Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, markings of documented WWII aircraft, Bendix turret, significant nearly all factory equipment installed; cons: neutral gray paint in place of natural metal on underside of the fuselage)

Honorable Mention:.

1. 44-29869 "Miss Mitchell" (pros: Significant amount of factory equipment installed, Bendix turret, markings accurate to documented WWII aircraft; cons: collector ring, Bendix Stromberg carb intakes)
2. 44-30748 "Heavenly Body" (pros: significant amount of factory equipment installed, close to accurate documented markings from a WWII aircraft; cons: Martin 250 turret upper half installed, TB-25N forward fuselage seating arrangement; collector ring, Bendix Stromberg carb intake, bomb bay ceiling lowered to accommodate more room for transferring between forward and rear fuselages, lacks 3 piece pilot window frame)
3. 44-30129 "Wild Cargo" (pros: significant amount of factory equipment installed, full factory stenciling, fairly accurate paint; cons: Martin 250 turret upper half, non-authentic WWII nose art, collector ring, Bendix Stromberg carb intakes, lacks 3 piece pilot window frame)
4. 43-4106 "Barbie III" (pros: Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, markings of documented WWII aircraft, Bendix turret upper half, cons: lacks 3 piece pilot window frame, missing some significant internal factory equipment)

Ryan

[turret nate]

To update my previous picks:

I have had the opportunity to be around a lot of B-25s over the years and have crawled through or flown in dozens. I believe these are my ranking of aircraft by authenticity. I have listed pros and cons from the perspective of accuracy, certainly not a knock on any of the aircraft, all of which are beautiful, well taken care of, and flying (except for "How Boot That" but it is "flyable" I suppose)

Top 5
1. 44-30254 FHC aircraft:(pros: Very accurate restoration to factory standards, Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, Bendix turret, nearly all factory equipment installed; cons: lacks 3 piece pilot window frame)
2. 44-28925 "How 'Boot That" (pros: documented combat history, Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, markings original to the aircraft, Bendix turret, nearly all factory equipment installed; cons: painted silver not natural aluminum)
3. 43-28059 "Apache Princess" (pros: nearly all factory equipment installed, Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, Bendix turret, paint and markings accurate to documented WWII aircraft; cons: nose art modified to include Kermit's wife's face)
4. 45-8835 "Betty's Dream" (pros: nearly all factory equipment installed, Holley carb intakes, Bendix turret, paint and markings accurate to documented WWII aircraft; cons: collector ring, lacks 3 piece pilot window frame)
5. 44-29939 "Briefing Time" (pros:Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, markings of documented WWII aircraft, Bendix turret, significant nearly all factory equipment installed; cons: neutral gray paint in place of natural metal on underside of the fuselage)

Honorable Mention:.

1. 44-29869 "Miss Mitchell" (pros: Significant amount of factory equipment installed, Bendix turret, markings accurate to documented WWII aircraft; cons: collector ring, Bendix Stromberg carb intakes)
2. 44-30748 "Heavenly Body" (pros: significant amount of factory equipment installed, close to accurate documented markings from a WWII aircraft; cons: Martin 250 turret upper half installed, TB-25N forward fuselage seating arrangement; collector ring, Bendix Stromberg carb intake, bomb bay ceiling lowered to accommodate more room for transferring between forward and rear fuselages, lacks 3 piece pilot window frame)
3. 44-30129 "Wild Cargo" (pros: significant amount of factory equipment installed, full factory stenciling, fairly accurate paint; cons: Martin 250 turret upper half, non-authentic WWII nose art, collector ring, Bendix Stromberg carb intakes, lacks 3 piece pilot window frame)
4. 43-4106 "Barbie III" (pros: Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, markings of documented WWII aircraft, Bendix turret upper half, cons: lacks 3 piece pilot window frame, missing some significant internal factory equipment)

Ryan

I am honored that our Commemorative Air Force "Miss Mitchell" made your list. Another plus is that the Bendix upper and Bell M7 tail turret actually work, and that the nose art was painted by the very man who painted the original nose art in the war!

Quick question, what does "collector ring" mean? Our plane goes to many air shows and we sell rides at most shows to raise money for the plane. The plane is always open to the public (for free) at our hanger on Wednesdays and Saturdays (when its not at shows of course).

[Red Tail]

Nate,

The collector ring grabs all the top cylinder exhaust and puts it out the side through the one larger stack on the "Ring". The lower individual stacks are correct and originally all 14 holes would have had their own ejector stack. The ring was a post war mod to keep ambient moisture out of the engine. Look at our cowls...you can see where the stack holes have been faired over.

John
CC Red Tail

[Ken]

All right! Great replies. Although I said "no rules", the contest is for "authentic", so remarks on who flew her or which airshow ... or tramp stamp status don't really enter the equation. This was not a popularity poll.

In fact, many of the comments were paint scheme related, and while accurate paint is important to me, I was actually thinking more about aircraft configuration.

Thanks to b29flteng, Jerry, Chris, and Ryan for the most detailed or on-topic responses so far.

Ryan, thanks for the update to this thread - it's been a good one.

Regarding exhaust collectors: early B-25s used an exhaust collector ring, whereby each cylinder's exhaust was tied to a common semi-circular pipe and exhausted out of one pipe/stack. Later C/D models switched to Clayton S stacks, which are the small triangular bumps seen around the outside of the cowl; each cylinder has its own small exhaust pipe located at the cylinder. Postwar mods removed the upper Clayton stacks and reverted to a partial collector ring; some lower cylinders retain the Clayton stacks. Just look at the skin of the cowl and you should see the presence (or absence) of bumps and there's the basic answer.

[rwdfresno]

Good morning,

Well it is certainly a beautiful bird. I had the privilege of crawling through "Miss Mitchell" several years ago in Fresno, CA when we hosted the Doolittle Raider Reunion.

To answer your question about the collector ring. The collector ring was a post war Hayes modification that replaced the individual S shaped exhaust stacks with an exhaust that collected all of the for the top 7 cylinders into a semi-ring shaped exhaust pipe that exited in a single stack (see pictures below). This modifications primary purpose was to provide carburetor heat and protect the top cylinders, although some also attribute it as sound abatement but I think the full collector ring is likely more affective for that.

Exhaust Collector Ring


Full S-stack Exhaust(Shamelessly stolen picture from Al Sauer's "Buster" Thread)


Thanks,
Ryan

I am honored that our Commemorative Air Force "Miss Mitchell" made your list. Another plus is that the Bendix upper and Bell M7 tail turret actually work, and that the nose art was painted by the very man who painted the original nose art in the war!

Quick question, what does "collector ring" mean? Our plane goes to many air shows and we sell rides at most shows to raise money for the plane. The plane is always open to the public (for free) at our hanger on Wednesdays and Saturdays (when its not at shows of course).

[Misterg97]

Here's my two ... helping to preserve history

[GARY HILTON]

All the previous choices are excellent examples, but, my pick for "The most authentic" would be the one they fished out of Lake Murry....looks nasty, and a bit of damage, but a virtual time piece.

[gary1954]

Miss HAP is my fav. Because she is an early version.

Early Version, I almost Choked on my coffee.......
Early Version, she is the sole surving example of the B-25 being the 4th production model to roll off the assembly line.
In historical value alone as the VIP Transport for General Henry "Hap" Arnold, and being the 4th production model B-25
she should be in the National Museum and N10564 returned to the air.

Problem is that although it was an early version, those days are long gone. The bird hasn't been representative of an early B-25 since WWII, when it traded in its straight wings for gulls and got the VIP transport treatment. Ever since then it has been a one-off mutt. Just because it has the data plate of the 4th production B-25 doesn't give it much historical value if it is otherwise completely unrepresentative of an early B-25. OTOH, it was, when first restored in the 1980s, still very much in the Hap Arnold transport configuration, and had significance because of that. I have a nice Air Classics piece on it from that period with some good wartime photos of this plane and one or two of its VIP sister ships. Unfortunately, that significance too has been compromised by the change to a bomber nose. At least they haven't added turrets yet, and the fuselage looks pretty much intact. I don't know how much of the VIP interior remains, but I hold out the hope that the bomber mods are reversible and that someone, someday, can put the plane back into its wartime Hap Arnold configuration and paint job.


August

Problem is that although it “was” an early version, are long gone.
Really, Personally, I beg to differ by virtue of the fact that the aircraft is known by most, that it is the “Complete airframe” of 40-2168, allows it to continue to be an “early version”.
I cannot explain why the constant dihedral was taken out of the wings on this particular ship, other than the possibility of a directive to make the aircraft more stable for the VIP staff using the aircraft following Arnold’s connection to the plane.
This does not alter the fact that she is a B-25, the 4th of 9 built under the initial contract; the B-25A came along with the 10th production model of the NA62 Contract.
So she is an “early B-25” regardless.
The modification of the outer wing panel attaching angle fails to put it in the category as a one-off mutt.
It would be fair to say that 40-2168 is the sole surviving B-25 with a production modification carried through to the end of the B-25 type production run.
Anyone having knowledge it was Hap Arnolds VIP transport and ripped out the original interior, is or was, in my personal opinion, an absolute idiot. being oblivious to that fact, I could work around that and classify that person(s) as un-informed and must be forgiven.

I will concur on the addition of the bombardier nose, which should not have been re-installed on this airframe unless she was going into re-modification to return the constant dihedral to the wings.

Hopefully, no one will attempt to install any turret systems in Miss Hap, as the original B-25 did not have a turret "system" anywhere in the ship, as the B-25 had glass window that could be cranked down and a single gun was cranked up from its stowed position to create an aft dorsal gun.
The tail stinger was a clam-shell where the tail gunner sat on the floor and could traverse a single gun up/down, with restricted movement left or right.
But to not classify this airframe as an “early version”......nah, can’t agree with ya on that one August

[Pogo]

Once again, I totally flunk "Search 101". I wanted to look over some photos of Miss Hap, no joy. Could one of you keyboard aces point ol' fat fingers in the right direction? Thanks!

[Ken]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37669&start=0

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12348

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13458&start=0

[Pogo]

Thanks, man! (I want lessons. )

[Ken]

Thanks, man! (I want lessons. )

I'm sure there are many ways to skin this cat, but I have been going to Google.com and selecting "advanced search". Then I fill in the blanks with what I'm searching for. I find that it helps to use "quotes" sometimes to make very specific phrases such as "three piece windshield" or "Clayton exhaust" and then put warbirdinformationexchange.org in the site or domain block.

The hardest part is combing thru the results to find the best ones.

[Warbird Kid]

No love for "Yankee Warrior" on this thread? That'd be my pick. One of only two with a rear-fuselage turret flying, that I can think of. Not sure what's inside her, but from the outside she looks pretty authentic.

Rich

My one beef with this one is that she is in fact a combat vet. So why not fly her in her original scheme? I already know the answer to that: YAM finds it easier to keep there flyers clean if there bare polished aluminum. Would be nice to see that vet back in her original wartime OD paint scheme.

[rwdfresno]

No love for "Yankee Warrior" on this thread? That'd be my pick. One of only two with a rear-fuselage turret flying, that I can think of. Not sure what's inside her, but from the outside she looks pretty authentic.

Rich

My one beef with this one is that she is in fact a combat vet. So why not fly her in her original scheme? I already know the answer to that: YAM finds it easier to keep there flyers clean if there bare polished aluminum. Would be nice to see that vet back in her original wartime OD paint scheme.

The recent (well relatively recent I guess) work done on "Yankee Warrior" has really been neat to see. The addition of the turret, package guns and glass nose really has enhanced the aircraft in my opinion. Again, not to detract from the fact that it is well maintained, flying, beautiful, and much improved, but if we are truly addressing the topic question of a "Authentic B-25 Contest" then I think we don't see the aircraft in the competition. There are certainly things that I could point out, but this thread really is more about the positives than the negatives.

If we are talking about a "Coolest B-25 Contest" then I can see it get plenty of votes, but of course "Barbie III" wins . Of course everyone has their own opinion on that.