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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:32 pm 
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I've been watching the thread on Dayton now since its conception. I've refrained from offering comment until now but I'd like to offer some of you at least some insight on how comment offered about a crash is accepted by many in the air show and display pilot fraternity.
I'm not here to chastise anyone. I fully realize that many of you carry a deep interest in aviation. All of you have opinions and are certainly entitled to express those opinions along with any feelings you might have within reason on this or any forum.
What I'd like to express here is simply food for thought.
We all love a good air show and certainly no one here or anywhere that I know of in aviation wants anyone to be hurt when engaged in these shows.
But it does happen from time to time, and when it does it affects the entire air show community. The effect is substantial.
Almost all the community are known to each other. Many have personal friendships and relationships spanning years. Some have life savings invested in aircraft and equipment.
When there is an accident it is literally felt throughout the entire industry. Lives are affected.
In the aftermath of an accident, the community comes together and seeks answers. If, as was the case with the Dayton accident, there were fatalities, the community at large is deeply hurt. The NTSB enters the picture as you all know and as well there are those of us in the community who begin our own in-house quest to find answers.
Naturally, after any accident, people not directly involved with display flying itself form opinions on the cause.Some feel the need to state these opinions publicaly. The key word here and what I'm getting at is CAUSE. I can't express strongly enough to you here at WIX the extent of negativity that is felt within the air show community when people exceed an expression of sympathy and make an early transition into the realm of CAUSE.
I have seen some of this expressed here.
I can tell you for an absolute certainty that although I am involved in open in-house discussions with other pilots of high experience dealing with show flying concerning Dayton, WE have not even come close to a determination for the Dayton accident as to cause.
Whatever that cause ultimately turns out to have been, the pilot involved was extremely qualified with unrestricted waivers in the Stearman. Something went horribly wrong but that something is YET to be determined.
Again, please know I'm not here to chastise and pontificate. What I'm conveying to you here is simply a "reminder" to possibly rethink what is posted here when and if we have a serious accident. We are after all, a fraternity of friends all devoted to aviation.
Thank you all
Dudley Henriques

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:33 pm 
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Dudley Henriques wrote:
The key word here and what I'm getting at is CAUSE. I can't express strongly enough to you here at WIX the extent of negativity that is felt within the air show community when people exceed an expression of sympathy and make an early transition into the realm of CAUSE.


+1 ... But I would have re-phrased your statement with 'bypass sympathy' and make an early transition into the realm of CAUSE. Which for some unfortunately translates into "if you don't like crash threads and videos, don't open them" :roll:
I'll state it again that there's a time and a place to study the causes of such accidents and there's a way the achieve constructive results from the time spent viewing a tragic and graphic video on an internet forum which doesn't involve losing one's sympathy and morality in the process.
As for the rush to speculations, accusations and negative opinions concerning the outcome of such tragic events, unfortunately this is an all too common approach with the culture of internet forums. As we all should know this approach only continues to add fuel to an already confused fire. The answers will come, they usually do and it's usually from folks who take a neutral stand in the matter and not one of optimism or pessimism.

And let's not forget that there's just as much suffering being experienced other than just the Airshow community, as there are many people who have nothing to do with airplanes, airshows and aviation that are in just as much pain over the loss of these poor folks. And those folks deserve just as much sympathy and compassion at this time.

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Last edited by Mark Allen M on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:49 pm 
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Dudley, I always appreciate your wisdom & insight. Thank You.
Robbie

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:40 pm 
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Robbie Stuart wrote:
Dudley, I always appreciate your wisdom & insight. Thank You.
Robbie


+1

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:16 pm 
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Dudley, eloquently written from both the brain & the heart!!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:38 pm 
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Robbie Stuart wrote:
Dudley, I always appreciate your wisdom & insight. Thank You.
Robbie

Absolutely + 1, thank you again.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:45 pm 
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Thank you Dudley
I too have always appreciated your wisdom and insight.

A piece of advice, that can span across many aspects of ones life, is particularly appropriate at a time when sensitivity is required.
"Never pass up an opportunity to keep your mouth shut"
I wish I followed my own advice more often :wink:

Thanks again

Andy Scott


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:17 pm 
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Mark Allen M wrote:
I'll state it again that there's a time and a place to study the causes of such accidents and there's a way the achieve constructive results from the time spent viewing a tragic and graphic video on an internet forum which doesn't involve losing one's sympathy and morality in the process.


I very much respect your comments and I agree very much with the spirit of what you are saying. I completely understand your position and have been the friend and/or acquaintance of those who have been lost to aviation accidents. I can also say that immediately following the shock and sorrow my first reaction was "how could this happen?" This of course leads to speculation and I think to a certain extent it is a natural part of the grieving process. I'd like to ask a question though and I don't at all mean it as a flippant remark, but when is the right time and where is the right place? I guess though it seems as though there is always a lot of discussion about what not to do in this situation with very little coaching on what the appropriate channels are for these discussions.

While many of us may have the fortune of having a community of local, like minded aviation enthusiasts around us to have an outlet to discuss things in private, not everyone who visits this site is in that same situation. To many, this site is their community of like minded enthusiasts and when something happens there is a sort of public grieving that occurs. As you mentioned there is the right time, so when is that time? Is it after the factual is released? Is it 3 months later? Again, I agree with the sprit of what you are saying and I appreciate the extremely tragic situation that this is for anyone involved.

Mark Allen M wrote:
As for the rush to speculations, accusations and negative opinions concerning the outcome of such tragic events, unfortunately this is an all too common approach with the culture of internet forums. As we all should know this approach only continues to add fuel to an already confused fire. The answers will come, they usually do and it's usually from folks who take a neutral stand in the matter and not one of optimism or pessimism.


Mark, again while I respect our comments, I don't understand what internet discussion forums are if they aren't to discuss, and it won't always be discussing the good times. We could all wait for the "proper authorities" to announce their finding. We could all also wait for Warbirds Digest or Air Classics to publish a story about the things that interest us, but we all come here for the real time discussion. Sometimes the onus does have to be on the consumer of the information to filter our what offends them. If someone I care about has been involved in a tragic situation sometimes it is best to just stay away from media that could possibly be further upsetting. It is a time to be with family and friends and then reengage later. Anyway, my comments aren't meant to offend.

Ryan


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:22 pm 
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Greetings Ryan, Very well stated post. I'm reluctant to post anything 'publicly' on WIX concerning this issue, or any other issue for that matter from here forward. But you deserve a response. Not that I'm weary of such conversations, just that I know when a respectful and constructive conversation ends and BS begins. I'm too old for that anymore and I get pissed at myself when I get sucked into a ranting contest with anyone. It only shows that more growing up is necessary on my part. (my own fault and a never ending battle)

I'll make an effort to answer your questions but I'll state this first, I try to live by a certain basic code of life rules and that is to try at all possible to respect the feelings and opinions of others and at the same time respect my own. I fail at this effort just as much as I succeed, but my efforts are ALWAYS continual and in good faith. Have I made mistakes in the past on WIX?, you bet I have, have I tried to make up for those mistakes?, well that's not for me to say as that's left up to others here. What I can say is that there certainly is a time and a place for discussions concerning fatal accidents and postings of graphic videos. That time should depend on the feelings and emotions of the people who are close to those who have lost their lives and frequent these forums. But we all know that just doesn't seem to work out that way. The place is most certainly a website such as WIX. And before that time occurs for a real conversation on the events and causes of such tragic accidents, the absolute wrong discussion on these forums IMO is one of rampant speculation and accusation. Nothing constructive, nothing productive and no real solutions are achieved by speculation. Speculation only adds confusion and harm to an already painful process. Nothing usually needs to be figured out over night in most cases and certainly the case in this particular event. Let the process of cause play out in due time, but more important allow the process of grieving and loss to begin and continue. The answers will come and those answers will be the 'right' answers if we just allow the proper amount of time. Let us show our compassion and respect for those who grieve as they need that time to grieve without being inundated with rampant speculation from those of us who are not close to the situation.

There's a misconception here on WIX by a few (very few fortunately) that foolishly think my opinion is one of never approving of aviation accident videos or conversation to occur here on WIX or anywhere for that matter. And that is simply nothing but ignorance on their part. Anyone who has the capability for logical thought can easily understand my stand, concerns and logic.

I stated earlier respect for others 'feelings' and 'opinions' .... I take other peoples opinions very seriously (as long as they are respectful and constructive) and as long as they take mine with equal seriousness. What more can one ask for in this world. But I also hold a high moral standard for the feelings of others as well, especially in tragic cases such as this particular event. I simply ask others who have a similar approach to respect, show compassion and use restraint with speculation.

In a nutshell? The time depends on people who are directly involved IMO and not folks who speculate on internet forums, the place can most certainly be WIX. And internet discussion forums are indeed mean't for responsible discussion and logical debate but not to speculate, accuse, and derive negative opinions. Unfortunately that's usually wishful thinking. Wouldn't you agree?

I hope I stated something along the lines of answering your questions Ryan

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:18 pm 
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Sorry Guys, I did not mean to offend anyone.
When you have to go back & edit your posts on a frequent basis then it's time to sit down & shut the He11 Up, so I am gonna take a break for awhile.
I reread my post from last night & it didn't even make sense to me. :rolleyes:
My apologies to everyone.
Robbie

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Last edited by Robbie Stuart on Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:36 pm 
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I really, really hope your kidding because I agree and respect EVERYTHING Dudley posted and his remarks were NEVER in question with me. I was concurring with him in my two posts.
I also was simply responding to Ryan's questions directed towards ME!!!! What was wrong with that? Am I missing an argument here? And the other thread in question has been removed. Sorry to piss you off. :roll:

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I don't understand what internet discussion forums are if they aren't to discuss


Quote:
try at all possible to respect the feelings and opinions of others and at the same time respect my own.


Unreal!!!! and thx for the nice send off

BTW I sent the guy a couple PM's asking if I had upset him, heard nothing back, maybe he is upset, who knows, strange place WIX is sometimes. I haven't the time to worry about these kind of things any longer.

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Last edited by Mark Allen M on Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:12 am 
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Robbie Stuart wrote:
Guys, as I have said before, I have been around these sad times before. I have read all of your comments, & observations, what you folks don't understand that Dudley has forgotten more about high performance flying displays, than we will ever know.
I have never met Dudley, but he reminds me of someone I used to fly with on our old B-23 Dragon -- Vernon Thorpe!
Vernon told me once "many moons ago" when asked "what all have flown in the CAF"? Robbie, "it would take me far less time to tell you what I have not flown" Well you guys need to read Dudley's comments that he was gracious to share with us, & you A-Holes that want to argue with the man that knows more than any of us on these subjects need to "check your 6" cause you are really spending time & effort insulting one of the few "no sh-t Dick Tracey" pilots that actually takes some time to even comment here!
Dudley, I am sure you knew Vernon, God Bless him!

You Guys Take Your BS arguments back to the original accident thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8)


Robbie,

We all read the comments and I appreciate them. This is a discussion forum and we are discussing. If I have offended Dudley it certainly was without intent.

Ryan


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:28 am 
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Robbie Stuart wrote:
Guys, as I have said before, I have been around these sad times before. I have read all of your comments, & observations, what you folks don't understand that Dudley has forgotten more about high performance flying displays, than we will ever know.
I have never met Dudley, but he reminds me of someone I used to fly with on our old B-23 Dragon -- Vernon Thorpe!
Vernon told me once "many moons ago" when asked "what all have flown in the CAF"? Robbie, "it would take me far less time to tell you what I have not flown" Well you guys need to read Dudley's comments that he was gracious to share with us, & you A-Holes that want to argue with the man that knows more than any of us on these subjects need to "check your 6" cause you are really spending time & effort insulting one of the few "no sh-t Dick Tracey" pilots that actually takes some time to even comment here!
Dudley, I am sure you knew Vernon, God Bless him!

You Guys Take Your BS arguments back to the original accident thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8)

I'm really not sure I fully understand the point you are trying to make here Robbie, and what you are trying to hold Vernon Thorpe up as an example of.

I don't know much about him, never met him, but the one thing I do know for certain is that he killed two friends of mine.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:27 am 
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I edited my Dumb-Ass post. My apologies to all. Taking a break for awhile. Yall take care.
Robbie

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:51 am 
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Greetings Robbie, not a problem at all, I was a little baffled by your post but not a big deal, everyone has posted a dumb-ass post every once in a while haha! ...

Don't leave WIX pal. Your good for this place.

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