Oskosh Accident

[Bill Greenwood]

Whatever the explanation, all too often it seem to happen to the nice guys. I recall a few years ago when Connie had to land with one gear down and one stuck up, there were alot of people praying that it did not flip over. She did a great job and maybe we had some luck on tht one just like the T-6 landing on HWY 41.

[Steven M. Dennis]

Steve and fellow Wix members. Mike Keenum's Riff Raff I believe left the area at the end of the Reno race segment and was not on the ground ahead of the 2 mustangs. I spoke with his mechanic and Mike was unaware of an accident until I had called. This does not add anything to the cause of the accident other than clear up that Riff Raff was southbound at the time of this unfortunate event.
David

Hi David,

I apologize. I could have sworn that Riff Raff landed first, taxied off the runway, then the two Mustangs came in with the Corsair and the Tigercat going around for a landing on the East/West runway after the accident.

My apologies again. I certainly don't want to post any mis-information. I guess my mind was focused on the Mustangs at the time...

Steve

[mike furline]

I know this is a sensitive area, here are some stills of the accident as it happened. Not intended to offend anyone.
How/Where can we forward these pics to the proper authorities, NTSB, FAA, etc.?

In pic #3 you can see the D's rudder makes contact with the A's wing just inboard of the right main gear. Looks like the prop did the damage to the horz. stab.. Sure looks like this would put the D in his blind spot.

Click on pic that you want to see, when pic opens click "all sizes" in upper left hand corner.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/lscan/page2/


Regards,
Mike

Last edited by mike furline on Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

[Sabremech]

.......

Last edited by Sabremech on Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

[51fixer]

My thoughts and prayers go out to Mr. Beck, his family and all that knew him. I'm not going to speculate but let the experts make a final analysis.
Changing subjects completely, I might point out there have been a few other P-51 landing accidents at Oshkosh over the years. Back in the 1980's Jimmy Hunt had an accident where the back of the plane was ruined. I remember his son Paul said they had a spare rear fuselage and empennage and just put the replacement on. I think, IIRC, a plane landed and turned into them on runway 27.
Another Runway 27 P-51 accident involved a Mustang landing on top of a Cessna 182. The propellor cut right through the fuselage all the way up but somehow avoided hitting any of the 4 people on board. It was a classic high wing/ low wing accident where neither saw the other.
I remember seeing a couple of P-51's over the years with bent blades where they had gotten on the brakes too vigorously. Someone pointed out that Fred Sebby's P-51 blades were 4 inches too short and that they could just be shortened like his! I think his got shortened after he went through a barb wire fence. Funny story!

I saw a P-51 barely miss destroying a C-195 at OSH in 79. The L/H main left a depression in the top skin and spars of the L/H wing of the 195. The 195 left a few slices in the belly of the P-51 including hitting the main coolant line. The P-51 was cleared to TO full lenth while the 195 was holding mid field as I recall. The P-51 managed to keep flying after the contact and went around the pattern streaming a cloud of coolant.
I also witnessed Fred Sebby going through the fence after the engine blew on TO at Chino. I rode with Steve Hinton out there and it was the 1st time I removed cowling and had internal engine parts fall on the ground.
In terms of looking at these accidents many who operate these types of aircraft in the display business must look at these incidents and even speculate as required. It is a gut check and offers valuable saftey info.
It is not meant as a black mark or to offend a pilot's memory or reputation. As mentioned it will take many months for an official report to be produced and those who operate these aircraft are not suddenly going to get some important info after all those months of waiting for the official report. The video and pics available on the internet give those operators some info that will help them now. It will involve some speculation but it gives an understanding of what was happening and how it came about. Enough to help us think and review operations so we can be safer.
As we reflect on this accident some things have been touched on. To further add to our understanding remember the A had the early canopy with much reduced visibility. We just got a C from England and just in ground operations I have made in it I have noticed such a difference in seeing out which has been mirrored by the pilot while flying it.
In looking at the video I feel that Gerry reacted in a way to avoid running over Casey. I can't say he knew who it was but I'm certain he pulled back on the stick. The R/H wing hung up after being driven into the tail and as Gerry pulled he lifted the tail of the D and it caused the A to rotate to the right as the attitude changed. Gerry's mains never touched but his tailwheel looked like it did as the pull was made. It was the only thing he could really do to change his position relative to the D. For that quick reaction Gerry is a hero.
Gerry rebuilt a fuselage for us and I visited his facility several times which included many conversations and also many phone calls. I am so sorry for his passing but I also know that he would be the 1st to insist that lessons be learned from this tragic accident. Not just after an official report but asap so that we can inhance the saftey of operating these aircraft and the airshows in which they are flown.
The best lesson that I draw from this is that some form of ground observers who are familar with the types of aircraft being flown and briefed with the pilots be able to keep eye contact with the departing and landing aircraft to be an extra observer to help prevent this from happening. OHS is chaos most of the time. Probably the most challenging place to operate in the world.
Rich

[mjanovec]

From watching the video, I thought that the A's right wing hit the rudder then slid underneath the D's left horizontal stab. When the A pulled up it broke the D's left horz. stab and caused it (the A) to roll right, the A's prop cutting thru the fuselage behind the D's canopy.

To my eye, when looking at the stills, it appears the first contact was the prop on the A cutting off the horizontal stab on the D (note the shredded pieces of the horizontal stab being left behind). The A then advanced up the fuselage, with the prop then cutting behind the D's canopy while the right wing hit the D's rudder, as Beck presumably turned to the right to avoid killing Odegaard.

Of course, that's just what I think I see... and I claim to be no expert on such matters. These are the pics I think that show the accident most clearly:

http://flickr.com/photos/lscan/sets/72157601065523576/

In the video you can also see a power change on the A model, just before she rolls over the D. From the stills we can see no aileron deflection and very little rudder. I looks as though Gerry got caught in the blind spot and this aweful thing happened. He definately saved a life.

Isn't the tower supposed to be watching for things like this? I know the airboss was mentioned but what about the tower?

[bdk]

Back to my original question... With a Mustang up on its nose and stationary, if you pull the emergency release handle will the canopy blow rearward along its tracks and off the aircraft?
Is there a spring that pushes the canopy aft or do the canopy rollers disengage so it simply falls off its tracks? I realize in most instances you would have airflow helping to get the canopy out of the way.

With the plane on the ground or on it's nose, the canopy will just sit there when the emergency release is pulled due to gravity. You have to push the canopy off from inside (or lift it off from the outside) from the guides that retain it. There is nothing to blow nor any spring loaded canopy ejection feature. In flight the airflow should carry it off/away.

[harvard_1]

The discussion on the Mustang accident and formation landing can be put to rest. Gerry and the other pilots were not planing a formation landing .Period. I have known Gerry for many years , he was a consumate professional and had never practiced or considered formation landings.
Why he did not know the other aircraft was in front of him I cant answer. I do know if he had any Idea that was the situation he would have gone around.
We may find out eventually what and why but I know he never realised there was another plane in that position. It was ahead and below. Its a blind spot .
We all hurt terribly for the loss.He was a wonderful friend .
B.May

[Warbirdnerd]

Steve and fellow Wix members. Mike Keenum's Riff Raff I believe left the area at the end of the Reno race segment and was not on the ground ahead of the 2 mustangs. I spoke with his mechanic and Mike was unaware of an accident until I had called. This does not add anything to the cause of the accident other than clear up that Riff Raff was southbound at the time of this unfortunate event.
David

Hi David,

I apologize. I could have sworn that Riff Raff landed first, taxied off the runway, then the two Mustangs came in with the Corsair and the Tigercat going around for a landing on the East/West runway after the accident.

My apologies again. I certainly don't want to post any mis-information. I guess my mind was focused on the Mustangs at the time...

Steve

The way I remember it, the Sea Fury landed first.

[kenair]

I think Mr. Greenwood is correct by raising this issue, we are here to learn and the web is a great tool to expediate learning for me.

I've been a warbird lover since a child and it pains me to see a loss of a good person. Mr. Beck's life was much too valuable to lose this way.


I was listening to CBC Canada radio this week, on the topic of combining aviation safety into the medical field, because the aviation community is continually monitoring safety and briefs and debriefs each flight or incident. more info here
http://hot.carleton.ca/hot-topics/articles/safety-in-or/


I would give back all my Airventures and airshows to have Mr. Beck and Mr. Leroy back with their families.

I send my love to their families, their pain must be unbearable.

[P51DFltLn]

In pic #3 you can see the D's rudder makes contact with the A's wing just inboard of the right main gear.

Regardless of what you *think* you see in any photo - recall that they were taken from 500 to 1000 feet away from a single angle. Having spoken with one of the investigators.... photos can be deceiving Let's please follow John's recommendation, and wait for the FACTUAL report

[mike furline]

In pic #3 you can see the D's rudder makes contact with the A's wing just inboard of the right main gear.

Regardless of what you *think* you see in any photo - recall that they were taken from 500 to 1000 feet away from a single angle. Having spoken with one of the investigators.... photos can be deceiving Let's please follow John's recommendation, and wait for the FACTUAL report

Obviously I haven't seen every pic taken of the accident, but these sequence of pics are the best angle I've seen so far.

After only having watched the video first, I was under the impression the A model was farther to the left of the D model. These pics appear to show otherwise.

I just made an observation about pic #3, it looks like the wings leading edge, inboard of the right main gear makes contact with the rudder as opposed to farther out towards the wingtip.

I wasn't assessing blame or coming to any conclusions. My observations certainly aren't gospel nor will they be included in any type of factual report.

Feel free to interpret the pics any way you like.

Last edited by mike furline on Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

[skybolt2003]

In pic #3 you can see the D's rudder makes contact with the A's wing just inboard of the right main gear.

Regardless of what you *think* you see in any photo - recall that they were taken from 500 to 1000 feet away from a single angle. Having spoken with one of the investigators.... photos can be deceiving Let's please follow John's recommendation, and wait for the FACTUAL report

They may have been taken from a 'single' angle, but it is a particularly good angle for judging that separation.

[Greg87]

Many people, including myself, have stated that the only good thing about tragic accidents like this is that some good may come out of it. Whether it be a lesson to other pilots or a change in a procedure or anything GOOD. Is there any chance that things could be changed at Oshkosh? I have continuously heard about how dangerous it is to fly in and out of Oshkosh, and that there are often fatalities, last year I think there were at least 3 deaths related to Oshkosh. Is there something that can be changed? I am asking because I truly don't know, I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything.

I don't know if it is in bad taste to ask, but I'm curious, are there any plans to restore "Stang"? I ask this not because of the aircraft itself, but perhaps it can be flown as a tribute to Mr. Beck?

Also, things like this should bring the warbird community, (obviously heavily represented on this forum...) together, perhaps we shouldn't be harsh on eachother while discussing something this sad? Just a thought.