Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:05 pm
I recall hearing at least one witness at the show state that the A model had "gone around" once prior to this final landing. I can not be sure that this is fact though.
Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:29 pm
Bill, All:
First off, I’ve watched the video and studied the stills as well. From what I can tell, there were no mechanical problems evident with either of the aircraft involved prior to their contact with each other. They were not in the process of a formation landing…period, end of discussion on that point. That type of landing sequence was not briefed and neither of the pilots involved would have tried it without prior briefing. Beck had over 9500 hours as PIC and that was neither the time or place to begin getting reckless.
I’ve spoken with three of the five pilots involved in the mock race and based on that information it is evident that the landing sequence did not go as briefed. At the end of the race the Airboss gave the clearance for the “Racers to land at their discretion”, meaning to land as they briefed among themselves. The lighter aircraft in the formation were to take off and land first because of wake turbulence considerations. Casey was to be first out and first in. During the landing sequence Casey and Beck were in the correct order, there was an aircraft already on the runway ahead of them which had called in down and cold. I was told no other radio transmissions were heard. That’s all I’m going to say since none of that is subject to speculation or conjecture.
The AirBoss is at show center which is about a mile from the end of the runway. There is no way he can possibly maintain spacing or identify and correct spacing issues from his vantage point. I do not believe there were spotters positioned down the runway to act as his eyes. If they were there, then they did not sound off. The EAA would have to clarify if spotters were on hand or not.
I will leave you with this parting thought: If you were landing and realized at the last second that there was landing sequence error leaving inadequate spacing with limited options and you were running up on a Mustang piloted by your best friend’s son, what would you do: A) continue on the current course which would certainly result in that persons death and possibly your own, or B) make an immediate course correction that will most certainly be your end but would save the life of a young budding pilot? There was a hero on that runway the afternoon of Friday July 27th at 3:30 pm.
It’s a terrible, tragic accident that cost the life a great aviator and mentor. Hopefully something worthwhile will be learned from it and put into practice that will make flying and airshows safer for all to enjoy.
Once again, I ask that out of respect for the families and friends involved, please do not speculate since it could end up tarnishing the reputation of any one of the pilots out there that afternoon.
John
CC CAF P-51C
First off, I’ve watched the video and studied the stills as well. From what I can tell, there were no mechanical problems evident with either of the aircraft involved prior to their contact with each other. They were not in the process of a formation landing…period, end of discussion on that point. That type of landing sequence was not briefed and neither of the pilots involved would have tried it without prior briefing. Beck had over 9500 hours as PIC and that was neither the time or place to begin getting reckless.
I’ve spoken with three of the five pilots involved in the mock race and based on that information it is evident that the landing sequence did not go as briefed. At the end of the race the Airboss gave the clearance for the “Racers to land at their discretion”, meaning to land as they briefed among themselves. The lighter aircraft in the formation were to take off and land first because of wake turbulence considerations. Casey was to be first out and first in. During the landing sequence Casey and Beck were in the correct order, there was an aircraft already on the runway ahead of them which had called in down and cold. I was told no other radio transmissions were heard. That’s all I’m going to say since none of that is subject to speculation or conjecture.
The AirBoss is at show center which is about a mile from the end of the runway. There is no way he can possibly maintain spacing or identify and correct spacing issues from his vantage point. I do not believe there were spotters positioned down the runway to act as his eyes. If they were there, then they did not sound off. The EAA would have to clarify if spotters were on hand or not.
I will leave you with this parting thought: If you were landing and realized at the last second that there was landing sequence error leaving inadequate spacing with limited options and you were running up on a Mustang piloted by your best friend’s son, what would you do: A) continue on the current course which would certainly result in that persons death and possibly your own, or B) make an immediate course correction that will most certainly be your end but would save the life of a young budding pilot? There was a hero on that runway the afternoon of Friday July 27th at 3:30 pm.
It’s a terrible, tragic accident that cost the life a great aviator and mentor. Hopefully something worthwhile will be learned from it and put into practice that will make flying and airshows safer for all to enjoy.
Once again, I ask that out of respect for the families and friends involved, please do not speculate since it could end up tarnishing the reputation of any one of the pilots out there that afternoon.
John
CC CAF P-51C
Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:30 pm
From watching the video, I thought that the A's right wing hit the rudder then slid underneath the D's left horizontal stab. When the A pulled up it broke the D's left horz. stab and caused it (the A) to roll right, the A's prop cutting thru the fuselage behind the D's canopy.
During the accident the D's canopy is on and open, it starts to close as the D noses over. After the accident it's missing.
Do P-51 canopies eject that far?
Regards,
Mike
During the accident the D's canopy is on and open, it starts to close as the D noses over. After the accident it's missing.
Do P-51 canopies eject that far?
Regards,
Mike
Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:30 pm
The propeller on the A cut the canopy control cable on the D causing it to open. When the D went up on it's nose the canopy closed. The canopy crank would be inoperative at that point, so the only way to get out was to release the canopy using the emergency release handle.
Last edited by Glenn Wegman on Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:03 pm
What airplane was on the runway ahead of them?
Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:34 pm
From John Beyl:
"Once again, I ask that out of respect for the families and friends involved, please do not speculate since it could end up tarnishing the reputation of any one of the pilots out there that afternoon."
John, thank you for your most appropriate, considerate and kind words. The families must come first. The lessons to be learned will be available once the investigations are complete. In the meantime, let us all re-read John's email, and let it go for now. Do it for decency, and do it for Gerry.
Craig
"Once again, I ask that out of respect for the families and friends involved, please do not speculate since it could end up tarnishing the reputation of any one of the pilots out there that afternoon."
John, thank you for your most appropriate, considerate and kind words. The families must come first. The lessons to be learned will be available once the investigations are complete. In the meantime, let us all re-read John's email, and let it go for now. Do it for decency, and do it for Gerry.
Craig
Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:39 pm
Stoney wrote:What airplane was on the runway ahead of them?
Mike Keenum's Sea Fury "Riff Raff".
My prayers are with the Beck and Odegaard families. I hope that God gives them the peace that only He can give in a time like this.
We'll miss you Gerry....
Steve
Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:49 pm
I was sitting in the grass by the runway right at the spot where they collided. My wife, who is in the beginning stages of pilot training, said she wanted me to teach her some stuff about flying while we were watching the airshow so I was trying to explain the traffic pattern and the different landing techniques (three-point and wheel landings) while the planes were coming in. The Tigercat landed first and the Sea Fury followed. I remember being really confused as to what the Mustangs were doing because the pattern they were flying didn't seem "normal". I guess I wasn't too concerned at first because after attending many Airventures before, things don't always seem to go the way I think they will. I know I don't have all the facts, but from my viewpoint it looked like they didn't have each other in sight. It was a tremendously horrible thing to witness and it was another reminder of how precious life really is. Having lived in and around the Twin Cities my whole life I had the pleasure of seeing the North Dakota gang around with their airplanes at the local airshows for as long as I can remember. Needless to say I was just shocked. To make it worse, many of the spectators were going berserk and screaming and cursing at the flightline security volunteers. I'll never forget that afternoon and Mr. Beck and his family are in my thoughts.
accident
Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:54 pm
John and Craig, it is my intention that as John says we might learn from a discussion of the accident and add to the safety of airshows. As for the NTSB findings, that may be months, even a year down the road, well after there are many more warbird flights and landings. We have the Gathering of Mustangs coming, we have CAF show, Wings Over Houston, etc. My objective is not to try to tarnish the reputation of any pilot, I haven't mentioned any by name. But I am not concerned with someone's reputation as a pilot above all else, that is not the measure of a person, and 90 hours or 9000 no pilot is perfect. I don't want to gloss over or ignore the accident, if we can find a course and /or improved method for the future that is what I am after. We have a series of photos, widely distributed on several media that shows the A overtook and struck the D. Why did it happen and how can we avoid it in the future. It is sometimne human nature to say "Hey some other guy made a mistake, it won't happen to me."One good military practice is to throughly investigate andy accident and try to prevent the same thing from repeating.
????
Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:58 pm
Thanks for sharing that John.
I believe your Option B is the correct answer
I believe your Option B is the correct answer
Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:19 pm
My thoughts and prayers go out to Mr. Beck, his family and all that knew him. I'm not going to speculate but let the experts make a final analysis.
Changing subjects completely, I might point out there have been a few other P-51 landing accidents at Oshkosh over the years. Back in the 1980's Jimmy Hunt had an accident where the back of the plane was ruined. I remember his son Paul said they had a spare rear fuselage and empennage and just put the replacement on. I think, IIRC, a plane landed and turned into them on runway 27.
Another Runway 27 P-51 accident involved a Mustang landing on top of a Cessna 182. The propellor cut right through the fuselage all the way up but somehow avoided hitting any of the 4 people on board. It was a classic high wing/ low wing accident where neither saw the other.
I remember seeing a couple of P-51's over the years with bent blades where they had gotten on the brakes too vigorously. Someone pointed out that Fred Sebby's P-51 blades were 4 inches too short and that they could just be shortened like his! I think his got shortened after he went through a barb wire fence. Funny story!
Changing subjects completely, I might point out there have been a few other P-51 landing accidents at Oshkosh over the years. Back in the 1980's Jimmy Hunt had an accident where the back of the plane was ruined. I remember his son Paul said they had a spare rear fuselage and empennage and just put the replacement on. I think, IIRC, a plane landed and turned into them on runway 27.
Another Runway 27 P-51 accident involved a Mustang landing on top of a Cessna 182. The propellor cut right through the fuselage all the way up but somehow avoided hitting any of the 4 people on board. It was a classic high wing/ low wing accident where neither saw the other.
I remember seeing a couple of P-51's over the years with bent blades where they had gotten on the brakes too vigorously. Someone pointed out that Fred Sebby's P-51 blades were 4 inches too short and that they could just be shortened like his! I think his got shortened after he went through a barb wire fence. Funny story!
Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:30 pm
.......
Last edited by Sabremech on Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:35 pm
Glenn Wegman wrote:The propeller on the A cut the canopy control cable on the D causing it to open. When the D went up on it's nose the canopy closed. The canopy crank would be inoperative at that point, so the only way to get out was to release the canopy using the emergency release handle.
I know this is has nothing to do with the accident, but after looking at the video and stills again, it appears the D had the canopy open when landing.
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?Cont ... ndex.cfm#d
Back to my original question... With a Mustang up on its nose and stationary, if you pull the emergency release handle will the canopy blow rearward along its tracks and off the aircraft?
Is there a spring that pushes the canopy aft or do the canopy rollers disengage so it simply falls off its tracks? I realize in most instances you would have airflow helping to get the canopy out of the way.
Regards,
Mike
Last edited by mike furline on Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:37 pm
Marine,
In the 70's (78?) there was a P-51 departing 27 when a 195 that had just landed taxied back onto the runway. When the '51 pilot raised the tail, he saw the 195, went to full power and tried to pull over it. The belly scoop tore through the roof and I think the tailwheel wound up in the 195.
The P-51 was leaking coolant and immediately landed on 36. Some injuries to the 195 pilot. That was also the year a T-18 with father and son crashed base to final on 18 killing both.
Steve G
In the 70's (78?) there was a P-51 departing 27 when a 195 that had just landed taxied back onto the runway. When the '51 pilot raised the tail, he saw the 195, went to full power and tried to pull over it. The belly scoop tore through the roof and I think the tailwheel wound up in the 195.
The P-51 was leaking coolant and immediately landed on 36. Some injuries to the 195 pilot. That was also the year a T-18 with father and son crashed base to final on 18 killing both.
Steve G
Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:54 pm
On the D model , when you crank it back, you are supposed to make sure that it is in a detent, and in a locked position. I've been told that if you take it too far back , there is a risk of it coming all the way off in flight. I think this happened in Europe last year.
On the ground, you can close the canopy by pulling forward on the handle on the left side of the canopy frame ,or a more gentle way is to take a guy on either side and put your hands on the plexiglas and it will slide forward fairly easily. The handle inside spins counterclockwise while you are pushing it forward.
My guess is that the D model's canopy was not locked and it went forward as the airplane decelerated under extreme conditions.
On the ground, you can close the canopy by pulling forward on the handle on the left side of the canopy frame ,or a more gentle way is to take a guy on either side and put your hands on the plexiglas and it will slide forward fairly easily. The handle inside spins counterclockwise while you are pushing it forward.
My guess is that the D model's canopy was not locked and it went forward as the airplane decelerated under extreme conditions.