Warbird Information Exchange

From which cockpit were WWII primary trainers soloed? I know that a Stearman was soloed from the rear cockpit...was that true of other primary trainers like the N3N or the PT-23? And, if you soloed from the rear cockpit, did you do all your training from that same position...or did you learn in the front and then move to the rear to solo?

Thanks,

John

I think it is all weight and balance dependant based upon the design. I have seen some civilian Stearman PT-17s that were modified and certified to solo from the front. PT-22 was from the back as well I believe. I'm pretty sure the PT-19, PT-26 and PT-23 were all from the front.

I second that. It all depends on the CofG. In the RCAF the solos were done from the front see of both the Fleet Finch and the Harvard, but the Tigermoth was a rear seat solo. I also think that the Cornell was a front seat solo.

Cheers,

David

As for the N3N, you solo'd from the back seat & thats where the student sat and the instructor was up front. If you did solo from the front, you needed to put weight in the back seat.

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Long Live the N3N-3 "The Last US Military Bi-Plane" 1940-1959
Badmouthing Stearmans on WIX since 2005

Sorry but the N3N was soloed from the front. Student sat in the front, the primer fuel guage, and mixture lock were all in the front. 125lbs ballast was required for solo flight. We had a stone stock N3N and I disabled the mixture lock and flew from the back seat. POH shows solo from the front. Don

Actually, the limited amout of information I could find on the PT-23 seemed to indicate it was soloed from the rear. I found a story told by a WWII pilot...he speaks of communication consisting of a tube running from the front cockpit back to the student in the rear...and when he talks about his solo he mentions his instructor climbing out and waving him on...no mention of having to change cockpits. I guess the only way to know for sure is to see where the mag switches are (unless the aircraft has two sets...I know our Stearman only has them in the rear).

John

A stock Stearman has a mag switch in both the front and rear cockpit.

I got a ride in a PT-23 a few years ago..having flown in a Stearmn, I automaticlaly went to climb into the front seat, but was directed to the back. I once rode in a PT-19, but I don't remember which seat I was in.


SN

I owned a Tiger Moth for nine years and always flew from the back seat if I had no passengers. Now I fly an N3N-3 and have to solo from the front seat unless I have 120 Lbs. of ballast in the rear. Heck, you can't even start it from the rear. Just depends on tha particular aircraft. Read the manual !!
Ken

Sorry Ron but that is not right! The student was taught and flew solo from the back. I have Official Navy pictures showing this and the instructor sitting up front. There was a primer pump in both cockpits for the fuel indication. Only the engine primer was in the front cockpit. If you read the Hand out Booklet printed by the Navy in 1940 called "Meet the N3N" (copies on Ebay) It shows to start the engine from the front cockpit, warm it up, then climb out and get in the back.

No where does it say in the pilots manual to solo from the front only. But it does say, IF single pilot from the front, install 125 lbs in the back seat.

I cant imagine the Navy at a airstation having 200 N3N's and keeping track of two hundered 120 lbs bags of sand for solo flights.

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Long Live the N3N-3 "The Last US Military Bi-Plane" 1940-1959
Badmouthing Stearmans on WIX since 2005

The Stearman PT-13/17/18 series was normally soloed from the rear seat due to CG considerations, same with the N3N and the Ryan PT-20/22. The Fairchild PT-19/23/26 series are soloed from the front. All of the WWII Primary trainers had mag swiches and fuel selectors in both cockpits when delivered. In post-war use there have been instances of one mag switch or fuel selector being deleted, or an electrical Master switch being installed only in one cockpit, that makes solo from the other cockpit unapproved even if sandbagged for weight and balance. I've heard from good sources that USN practice for formation training was for the student to fly from the front seat due to improved visibility, and to sandbag the rear seat for solo formation flights.

Tom-

the STOCK stearman could ans was soloed from either front or back.. when you add the battery,starter,generator and all the assosiated electrical (that was done after they left mil service) then the CG is too far forwad and must be soloed from the rear seat only and must be plackarded that way .. read the TCDS and it tells you when the plackard must be displayed.. The mag switch is mechanical lever on the left side of the inst panel that is interconected to the other seat and THEN conected to the actual switch that is mounted on the firewall.. again after the war they have been modified for single switch operation because it was easier and less parts..

JCW-

Agreed re the Stearman TCDS limitations, I was responding to the initial post which seemed to have led to a discussion of WWII military practice.

As always the TCDS must be consulted closely for the official policy.

Tom-

One more note on Navy trainers. The name "Yellow Peril" Though sometimes Stearmans are called that and also N3N's for there "pretty yellow paint job" is not accurate.

The true "yellow peril" name IS for the N3N, but it was called that because of its spin was usually fatal. If spin training was done using the N3N, it was done inverted. I have a copy of a USN film about spin training the N3N inverted.......................looks pretty nasty.

_________________
Long Live the N3N-3 "The Last US Military Bi-Plane" 1940-1959
Badmouthing Stearmans on WIX since 2005

I flew the PT-17 from the front seat while the owner and PIC was in the rear.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager