Warbird Information Exchange

There is a video on WIX and probably other sites of the tragic accident at OSH this year, but I can't get it to run on this borrowed computer. I have seen still photos. What I would like to know from anyone that has seen the video, Is there any sign of smoke or fire from the P-51A, before the inpact with the D model? Was there any evidence of trouble that would lead the pilot to try to get it on the ground even faster than a normal landing?

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Didn't see anything, but we will never know exactly what if anything he was dealing with. Based on what we know about other crashes, I would say that there may have been a lot going on that we did not know about. Fuel leak perhaps, or some other problem that hurried and distracted the pilot. A tragic loss that we are all the poorer for.

Unfortunately speculation may be all we have.

Bill,

I've watched the video several times and didn't see any smoke or any emergency type situation before the crash. But like Joe said...we may never really know for sure.

John

I watched it several times as well, and the only thing I could draw from it was that the wheels of the lead plane were on the ground for some time while the trailing plane was still in the air but maintaining formation. In general - and not speculating on the cause of this tragic event - once the wheels of one plane are on the ground the deceleration profile could change dramatically compared to a plane that is still flying. I have had some formation training and was always taught that the trailing plane lands first. But other than that, there was no apparent distress from what I could see.

But, who knows what was going on in the cockpit or with the airframe that was not visible. Even something like the prop slightly changing pitch due to an oil pressure bobble could cause a negative change in the deceleration of the trailing plane (relative to the lead).

Thanks guys. It appeared that there may? have been flames even before the A hit the ground. It appears the D made a normal landing, then the A overran it from behind. Why? One practice in airshows is to land halfway down the runway or to land on only half the width. I have never like this practice, it seems to add risk for no good reason, but it is commonly done. Did he expect the first plane to land long or was he trying to land alongside and lose sight of the first plane? How hard was the engine being run, was it likely to develop a problem? I know it is hard mentally as well as actually to slow from 300 mph to 100, I prefer a cool down lap if possible.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

i've seen some still pics....... horrific. i know it's an issue buzzing on this site about posting them, but if the sleazy regular news media posts it, so be it. at least on this site it's concentrated on pilots & ENTHUSIASTS thus it may save lives in the future.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

I agree with the no fire appearence of the A model, but I have doubts that it was a "planned" formation at all. In every show I've been personally involved with, I don't ever recall P-51's landing in formation. I don't mean to say it never happened, just that I've never seen it. I don't even recall Shipley and Beasley landing in formation.

I have the feeling from the video that the A Model never saw the D until too late. The separation distance was pretty large until the D touches down and not consistant with formation landings that I've witnessed.
Jerry

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"Always remember that, when you enter the ocean or the forest, you are no longer at the top of the food chain."

I just watched the video again, and I too believe that it may not have been a planned formation. Judging from their approach, the D may well have been in the blind spot (below, in front, and to the right) of the A model. I wonder if the A thought that the D was going to be landing behind him?

When I said landing beside him, I did not mean in formation. I hav never seen this done in fighters, the EAA formaton book even says not to, and I have never even had a briefing for formaton landings in fighters. We have done it regularly in T-34s, but you can do most any landing in a 34. I just meant the A model might have been trying to land on the east half of the runway and expected the D to be on the west half or perhaps even farther down the runway. I think it is safer if each plane makes a normal landing in the center, at normal speed and distance, but it is not always done that way. Probably the D model was not visible under the nose or wing, or else he would avoided him.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

At the start of the video, the 'A' is way above the 'D'. So high that I would guess he could not see the 'D'. Maybe a Mustang guy could relate that to us. We don't know what was going on in the cockpit, but I don't think Mr Beck would have intentionally placed his ship in such an overlapping position right behind another '51, and held there until close to touchdown. His wheels never actually touched. I think the sudden pull may have been reacting to seeing the 'D'. Does anyone (Bill?) know what the airboss's role is during the landing phase after a display? Does he help place the a/c into the traffic pattern?

Steve G

NTSB says they were not landing in formation...see www.aero-news.net for more. It would appear as if the D-model was right in the A-model's blind spot. A very very unfortunate accident...

Zack

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Volunteer Coordinator/Curator - Military Aviation Museum - Virginia Beach, VA
"America's Flying Museum"
http://www.militaryaviationmuseum.org

Bill;
I agree with you one this.
I mentioned the "formation" only because so many of the eyewitnesses stated the Mustangs were "landing in formation" and I didn't think that was the case from the moment I heard about the accident.
Jerry

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"Always remember that, when you enter the ocean or the forest, you are no longer at the top of the food chain."

Looking at several videos, it seemed as though the P-51A was slightly higher compared to the D, so being unsighted seems very possible. I can't recall any flames prior to the inverted impact with the ground.

Just found this on ANN: http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?ContentBlockID=31ba3790-0e30-4c7a-a2aa-e06a6af2b82d&Dynamic=1

Incredibly sad whatever the reasons.

Steve, I don't know how Oshkosh works the Air Boss and sequencing, but every show I've worked ops at, the air boss advises on a sequencing for landing. It may be pre-planned at brief or AB may call the shots as the aircraft finish their routines. Sometimes an act is asked to stretch or hold for timing, and then advised which runway to land on, but I believe the AB can't actually use the term "cleared to land".
I've only airbossed three shows myself, so I want to make it clear that I don't have a huge amount of experience as an AB, but I do have 17 plus years of professional airshow ground operations. This has at least given me close insight as to how different AB's handle flight ops.
Jerry

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"Always remember that, when you enter the ocean or the forest, you are no longer at the top of the food chain."

I watched video about 200 times already and I see that the A model overtook the D model and the D was totally in the blind spot ( bottom right ) of the nose of the A model.

As you can tell in the video as well, the D could have been hidden the entire time on approach, because of the lower altitude and being in the A's weak spot on the bottom right off the pilots field of vision.

It appears that the D had both wheels down and the initial strike of the A's prop was first at the tail section and then into the fusalage rear of the rear seater about 2 feet.

I am assuming that the prop strike into the D caused the Prop to create so much torque that it tossed the a into a right roll.

Terrible Terrible accident. Again, this is my observation and in no way am I a legal expert in this case.